The Evangelical Universalist Forum

"Eternity vs Ages" in Julie Ferwerda's "Raising Hell"

, Julie Ferwerda"]For your entertainment, I have taken some screen captures from Strong’s Concordance at Studylight.org and have also outlined the particular definitions I want you to pay attention to. Check out the contradictions involved in the official definitions of the noun, aion, and its adjective form, aionios:

, Julie Ferwerda"]As you can see, Strong’s lists the definition of aion as both a “period of time” and “forever.” Also, for the adjective form, aionios, the definition says, “without beginning and end” (twice), yet KJV also translates it as, “since the world began.”

Aion is decisively a noun, yet it has frequently (and erroneously) been replaced with adverbs or adjectives (such as forever and ever, everlasting, eternal). Also, some of the varying words it is translated into already have their own Greek word, such as world (kosmos), time (chronos), beginning (arche), and end (telos). The adjective form, “aionios,” most literally means, “pertaining to an age.”

The use of the word “aion” for such a variety of words, phrases, and concepts in and of itself should raise a major red flag. The Koine Greek language of the New Testament is much more consistent with its rules of case and does not allow certain liberties taken in English. Greek words also typically have more specific, conceptual meanings. For instance, Greek has at least three words for love: brotherly love (phileo), romantic love (eros), and unconditional parental love (agape). Regardless, the words aion and aionios each have one primary meaning and should always be translated, age and pertaining to an age or ages, respectively. While many Bible students or theologians will defend the gamut of translation liberties taken of these two words, there are many prominent, respected Bible scholars today who argue for a more consistent and literal translation.**

While I understand the need for “dynamic equivalence” at times when translating the Bible so that it is more relevant to modern readers, the fact of the matter is that aion is not a word that changes with context. The truth can be seen when reading an Interlinear Bible or literal translation where both of these words are always translated accurately and consistently. Just look up in one of these two resources any passage from the New Testament where everlasting, eternal, or forever and ever are used in your everyday Bible, and you will see what I mean. When you understand the Hebrew perspectives, and the plan of the ages, using the correct translations of aion and aionios make sense in every single passage, whereas the many faulty translation occurrences of these words result in frequently critical distortions. Here’s one less critical but obvious example from Ephesians 3:21:
]Young’s Literal: “…to Him [is] the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages.”/:m]
]KJV: “Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end.”/:m]
]NKJV: “…to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever.”/:m]
]NLT: “May he be given glory in the church and in Christ Jesus forever and ever through endless ages.”/:m]

As you might have guessed, Young’s Literal is the most accurate and true to the Greek. Notice that KJV and NKJV differ in that KJV leaves the ages idea intact, whereas NKJV completely drops the ages and renders “forever and ever.” Which brings up a good point. Why even have “and ever”? Can you have more than one forever? Also, while KJV does get “ages” correct in this instance, they also insert the phrase, “world without end,” which is just another example of translators inserting something that is rather non-sensical (and not there).

In Young’s Literal Translation, a truer translation from both Hebrew and Greek, you will not find any words associated with eternal or forever anywhere. Compare YLT to NASB in Mark 3:29:
]NASB: “…but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."/:m]
]YLT: “…but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness—to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment.”/:m]

**To see a lengthy list of quotes from well-known, respected modern day scholars who have openly admitted that aion and aionios pertain only to time and ages (not eternity), check out the Resources section.This is only a bit of the excellent chapter on translation. If anyone hasn’t already downloaded/bought this book yet, I highly recommend you do :smiley:

I just read the chapter this morning - absolutely brilliant! :sunglasses:

Yes that was a very good chapter. :slight_smile: I just finished reading the book the other day. I enjoyed it very much, she is a very good writer. I think it is a very good introductory book to the subject of UR, a lot like Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin.

I really liked her approach to UR through the Jewish lense and the feasts of the OT. I also always felt that there was some connection, especially with the Year of Jubilee, but I thought it was just me and my crazy ideas :laughing: She helped by putting it all into words in a very nice way.

I would highly recommend this book to anyone :slight_smile:

Bought a hard copy of the book yesterday on amazon but read some of the pdf last night. Best book I’ve read on the subject (sorry Rob Bell and Gregory MacDonald). On her blog, I invited Julia to join the forum.

Is not the concept of “age” indeed a variable term? I don’t see the red flag that she does. God’s age is eternal, man’s is but “three score and ten”.

I think the red flag she is talking about is that the church is absolute in its stand that eternity is eternity and then you see this word and find out that is means all kinds of things, supposedly, and some of them are very different from one another. How can you be so certain that this complex word means “eternal” when it comes to punishment when it can mean both eternal and NOT eternal! That is a red flag. I sure thought so. That is like having a word that means holy and NOT holy.

Well, you have to look at context. When it says that “This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” it sure sounds like endless, as the context is opposing dying (clearly an end) and living forever.

Here is Young’s literal translation:
50this is the bread that out of the heaven is coming down, that any one may eat of it, and not die. 51`I am the living bread that came down out of the heaven; if any one may eat of this bread he shall live – ***to the age;


Nevertheless, even if it does mean eternal their is no problem to me because there are also places where everyone admits that is doesn’t mean eternal. For example, Romans 16:25:

25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past

“Long ages past” is the translation of aionios, which is clearly not eternal. The fact that it is accepted as being both eternal and not eternal are a huge red flag to me. With that in mind we should have taken a long, hard look at the duration of hell since aionios is the only word in the bible that supposedly gives it an eternal duration. One word. No other place in the bible ever indicates that God would ever punish eternally. Nowhere. Everytime God says he’s going to punish “forever”, he turns around and limits the punishment. He told Israel, in the book of Jeremiah several times that his punishment would be eternal (my fire will burn forever), **and that punishment lasted seventy years. ** Kind of makes you wonder if they got that translation wrong. Young’s makes more sense:

For a fire ye have kindled in Mine anger, Unto the age it doth burn.

At least he got it right that it was temporary.

Also, God follows up his “eternal fire” in Jeremiah with this famous passage in the same book, after he said “forever”

I know the plans that I have for you, declares the LORD. They are plans for peace and not disaster, plans to give you a future filled with hope. 12Then you will call to me. You will come and pray to me, and I will hear you. 13When you look for me, you will find me. When you wholeheartedly seek me, 14I will let you find me, declares the LORD. I will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I’ve scattered you, declares the LORD. I will bring you back from the place where you are being held captive.

So it would seem that, to God, forever doesn’t mean forever!

Chris

That is high praise indeed, I’m looking forward to reading more of the Kindle version, and then I reckon I’ll buy a copy to lend to people.

Nice one, I love it when people take initiative :sunglasses:

I think the red flag she is talking about is that the church is absolute in its stand that eternity is eternity and then you see this word and find out that is means all kinds of things, supposedly, and some of them are very different from one another. How can you be so certain that this complex word means “eternal” when it comes to punishment when it can mean both eternal and NOT eternal! That is a red flag. I sure thought so. That is like having a word that means holy and NOT holy.

Well, you have to look at context. When it says that “This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” it sure sounds like endless, as the context is opposing dying (clearly an end) and living forever.

Here is Young’s literal translation:
50this is the bread that out of the heaven is coming down, that any one may eat of it, and not die. 51`I am the living bread that came down out of the heaven; if any one may eat of this bread he shall live – ***to the age;


Nevertheless, even if it does mean eternal their is no problem to me because there are also places where everyone admits that is doesn’t mean eternal. For example, Romans 16:25:

25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past

“Long ages past” is the translation of aionios, which is clearly not eternal. The fact that it is accepted as being both eternal and not eternal are a huge red flag to me. With that in mind we should have taken a long, hard look at the duration of hell since aionios is the only word in the bible that supposedly gives it an eternal duration. One word. No other place in the bible ever indicates that God would ever punish eternally. Nowhere. Everytime God says he’s going to punish “forever”, he turns around and limits the punishment. He told Israel, in the book of Jeremiah several times that his punishment would be eternal (my fire will burn forever), **and that punishment lasted seventy years. ** Kind of makes you wonder if they got that translation wrong. Young’s makes more sense:

For a fire ye have kindled in Mine anger, Unto the age it doth burn.

At least he got it right that it was temporary.

Also, God follows up his “eternal fire” in Jeremiah with this famous passage in the same book, after he said “forever”

I know the plans that I have for you, declares the LORD. They are plans for peace and not disaster, plans to give you a future filled with hope. 12Then you will call to me. You will come and pray to me, and I will hear you. 13When you look for me, you will find me. When you wholeheartedly seek me, 14I will let you find me, declares the LORD. I will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I’ve scattered you, declares the LORD. I will bring you back from the place where you are being held captive.

So it would seem that, to God, forever doesn’t mean forever!

Chris

Chris, if it meant “to the age” meaning that you die then, then that would contradict the idea that there is a contrast between eating and dying, and eating and not dying.

But it’s OK to me if it can be translated “eternal”. I don’t need for it to never be “eternal” for my argument to work. What’s important to my point is that it CAN mean less than eternity, and it is a fact that it can be. The Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon, a well-respected Lexicon, verifies this, as does the NASB bible, and many other sources. The point is that context is the determiner of how aionios is translated. So I have a question for you: where in the bible do you get the understanding that God punishes forever? Outside of “aionios” which can mean eternal or not eternal, where do you get the understanding from the bible that God’s punishment, anger, and wrath last an eternity?

Exactly. That’s what I was going to say. :slight_smile:

And on the flipside we have many verses that Echo the “God had hardened to disobedience all that he may show Mercy to all” idea. Not to mention God’s Unconditional Love towards Adam/Israel (which represent Humanity) despite the constant disobedience, or how some Prophets describe it …adultery.