The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Evil and Chaos? What is Chaos and its relation to God?

Evangelical Universalism
#1

I’ve been aware for some time of AllanS’s discussions involving “chaos” and such things as that, and I also ran across a book suggestion to one member concerned about the The Problem of Evil that he should read, titled "Putting God on Trial; The Book of Job.

The Problem of Evil is a subject that I generally wrestle with, and more poignantly so as of late, and it is certainly an issue I’ve argued viciously within, notably against certain members who have proposed that God himself is the Author of Evil. But more about that later.

I’m on a quest, and that quest is to understand Evil. What it is, why it is, and why God allows it. The Problem of Evil is a great and heavy question, its task is daunting, and its consequences are things concerning the very threads by which the fabric of all suffering is weaved, and for many it is the great make-or-break issue that determines one’s beliefs about Theism and Atheism, and it is the very root which drives many of the major world religions, if not all of them.

The Problem of Evil, is the great challenge in much of our existential discourse with the world, and ourselves. And so it is, that I must wrestle with it - which has now lead me to the question, “Chaos?”

I would like to know what I can about this “Chaos”, and I would especially like to hear AllanS’s view (if you are willing, Allan), and the views of others; I would especially like information, intelligent and well informed research, resources, and other such things - free preferably.

#2

Good question, Lefein

It’s an interesting and elusive topic. I think God gave me something on this yesterday morning, but I’m not ready to share it quite yet. I’ll have to see whether/how it’s substantiated by scripture. If it gets a little more solid, perhaps I’ll put it out here at some point. I don’t think He made evil, though. It’s not like that at all, though it may look that way at first glance.

Anyway, I wanted to pop this back up to the top because I’d also like to see people’s take on the subject. :wink:

Blessings and G’night!
Cindy

#3

I’ve always had a problem with creation “ex nihilo”. Is it possible, even for God, to make something from nothing? It seemed to be a contradiction in terms. Absolutely nothing can come from absolutely nothing. But if (to borrow a metaphor) we are intelligent icons in a deeply programmed matrix, (ie, if we exist in the mind of a supreme-intelligence) then our entire universe would indeed be made from nothing. (A thought is something made from nothing.) What’s more, the whole box and dice could have been thought up yesterday, and be discarded tomorrow. Both the beginning and the end of this world might be much closer than we (from the inside) can possibly know, rendering the whole science/religion debate meaningless.

As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, as we get closer and closer to making exponentially intelligent contraptions, it becomes ever more certain that we also are “artificial” intelligences, and that our universe is not the Primary Reality. On the day we become creators, we will know that we are creatures.

It’s funny, really. Atheists, who think this is the Primary Reality, will soon look as silly as Christians who thought the earth was the center. And Christians, who have always insisted that this is a Secondary Reality, will suddenly look very clever.

#4

the many worlds theorists seem to be stating that the actual energy of the universe is by and large nearly 0, and that this (and the fact that some particles appear to pop into existence and out again) is evidence to them that the universe…just happened, and from nothing, without a Creator necessary.
so oddly it seems that some scientists are accepting a kind of ex-nihilo premise.

personally i don’t think “chaos” is evil. it to me is the pallette from which God draws the colours so that He can paint the world as He wants it. i think evil is actually rather ordered, a purposeful rebellion against the picture God wants to paint. or perhaps as Tolkein theorised, a purposeful off note in the symphony of creation (which would require knowledge of the order of the piece in order to choose a note that was really off, hence the ordered rebellion works here too), which God incorporates to make a sadder, but more profound work.

God had it in mind to create others to spend eternity with. those others are us. but i think He needed us to grow up in a world apart from Him, so that when reunited we would value that communion with Him all the more. i think this is why God allowed evil (though i find it difficult to believe that God actively created it, given the particularly vile nature of some of the evil out there).

i think of it as God setting up a proper environment, with the safety settings switched off, but also apart from Him (at least compared to whatever Heaven is), for us to grow in and attain maturity.

the interesting thing to me is that God appears to have come up with the idea for growth, rather than just creating us as desired to start with. that to me is the genius of it. we will appreciate Him all the more when we see the scope and power of His reconciliation, when we experience life as He intends it, and fellowship with Him without fear or guilt. we will appreciate that all the more having known death, fear and guilt.

am i on topic still? :blush:
so yeah i don’t see evil as chaos. i see chaos as nature. God is master of chaos, and brings order out of it.
evil…i think the start of evil (or sin) is, as Granny Weatherwax puts it, “treating people as things”. that’s not all it is, but that’s where it starts. and we can treat God as a thing too.

#5

Yes you are, and worry not, I’m not a strictian over rabbit trails - they’re often necessary to get to one’s explanation and views of the matter on topic, speaking of Chaos. :laughing:

All in all though, very interesting views so far.

For an update on my search about the subject, I myself have been wondering if “Order and Chaos are, like persons of God, unique-seemless expressions of the same essential principle - Being.” This was the philosophical nugget of an idea that came to mind last night.

#6

i agree with that nugget.

#7

Bob (my self-aware quantum computer) decides to run a simulation. The first thing he needs is lots of space in his memory. He does this by randomizing particles on his hard drive so they no longer contain information. (The earth was formless and void). Having chosen the basic algorithms that will define the unfolding of his simulation (ie. the natural laws for this particular universe), he lets it run (Let there be light.) through 20 squillion iterations. (The arrow of time.) As his simulation unfolds and grows ever more complex, the chaos in the drive is replaced with information.

An observer in Bob’s world sees particles being rearranged on the hard drive as electrons buzz about, but Bob sees (in his mind) evolving galaxies, super-novas, dinosaurs and small bipedal primates. If Bob projects the simulation onto a screen, observers in his world can get a better idea of what’s going on, but the only way to gain a full appreciation would be, somehow, to join their minds to his. (It would be a beatific vision.)

It may be that the only algorithms that evolve intelligent life in his simulation also produce nasty side effects like tsunamis and smallpox. Interestingly, this would give us an intelligently designed universe containing loads of evidence for haphazard evolution and mindless lack of design.

#8

i enjoyed this! fascinating way of understanding things, thanks! :mrgreen:

#9

“Many assume that if there are good reasons for the existence of evil, those reasons would be accessible to our minds, but why should that be the case?” Alvin Plantinga