Here’s a song, for ALL of us here - who see Christ’s “superiority”.
Your epistemology is unclear to me. I post numerous texts that contradict your claims, and assert that Jesus alone is Lord. You appear to respond by arguing such texts assert things that aren’t true, and proceed to list texts which state ideas that you affirm.
I’m o.k. if you are acknowledging that you see the Bible saying conflicting things. Are you demonstrating, as it appears, that you believe one needs to wisely choose texts when one asserts what “the Bible” teaches, and that you believe your own choices of texts is superior to the wider traditions?
Finally. This came in today’s email. From the non-denominational site - Got Questions. It might clear up LLC’s “confusion”.
And sometimes I come across theological changes, that TRULY shock me. Like this article, from this week’s Patheos Catholic newsletter:
Apparently you do not believe the scriptures I quoted that state that Jesus is the ONLY Son of God.
Here they are again:
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
1John 4:9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.
If you cannot accept the plain words of Scripture, then there is no basis on which to dispute with you.
Davo, you said:
LLC… for nothing more than positional sake you pedantically ignore ALL THOSE TEXTS demonstrating Christ’s supreme work and position — “like you” did NOT mean ‘equivalent’ as you say, but rather… one LIKE Moses who was called, appointed and anointed. Jesus through OBEDIENCE was APPOINTED Israel’s Messiah and the world’s Lord (Acts 2:36)… Moses was not — Jesus was superior to all, and the likes of Moses or Elijah would have been the first to acknowledge such (Lk 9:30-31, 35)!
“Like you” means having the same characteristics or qualities. As Hebrews 3 states Moses was faithful to the One who appointed Him, just as Jesus was also faithful to the One who appointed Him.
Jesus says in John 7:16-18 " My teaching is not Mine but is from the One who sent Me. He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory, but He who seeks the glory of the one who sent Him is true."
Moses was not speaking from himself, nor was he seeking his own glory. He was following the Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 63:11-12 " Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people saying: “Where is He who brought tem up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who put His Holy Spirit within them, who led them by the right hand of Moses, with His glorious arm…”
As for Elijah, Jesus compares Himself to Elijah as one and the same in Matt. 17:11-12. " Elijah truly is coming first and will restore all things. But I say to you Elijah has come already , and they did not know him…" And no, Jesus was not speaking of John the Baptist as Elijah because he was not like Elijah; Jesus was.
Apparently, you do not believe the scripture which state otherwise. In the beginning God made Adam in his own image and he was the son of God. I also mentioned Exodus 4:22, Psalm 2:7 and Romans 8:14.
Bob, We are not to give God lip service.
I’m happy LLC can set us straight. Perhaps the apostles and Paul…as well as the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant churches…along with members on this forum - are ALL wrong about Christ’s “superiority”. It’s within the realm of possibility, that LLC might be right. And it’s also within the realm of possibility…that my theory regarding the Zombie Apocalypse…as the most probable, end times tribulation scenario - IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.
LLC, What does your response have to do with whether the apostle is or is not affirming that “Jesus is LORD,” or that this belief is central to the N.T. apostles? No one here construes this text to argue that lip service is fine. Do you actually see Paul talking about lip-service in this affirmation?
Bob, From what I understand, one must follow the teachings of Jesus to be saved. What I’m saying is that Jesus was not superior to the fathers. Jesus was not standing above Moses and Elijah on the Mount. He was raised up and joined with them at the right hand of God. Had the people followed the teachings of Abraham, Moses, the prophets etc.etc., they would have been saved as well. Jesus did not create Israel. Abraham built his house upon the Rock/ Spirit of God/ Divine Law and principles of life etc. What I believe the Bible is saying is that the Christian faith did NOT grow out of Judaism, but that Christianity WAS the faith of the fathers. Judaism was a going astray from this faith. It was a branch that needed to be pruned.
Phil 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,… — including that of Moses & Elijah
Eph 1:20-21 …which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. — ONLY Jesus is seated at His right hand!
LLC… it doesn’t matter how many times you exclaim “from what I understand” all the texts everyone keeps showing you are screaming something quite other than the avoidant conclusions you keep manufacturing — why not just listen to the texts?
We only see what we want to see; we only hear what we want to hear. Our belief system is just like a mirror that only shows us what we believe. Don Miguel Ruiz
And from the Wiki article:
that focuses on ancient teachings as a means to achieve spiritual enlightenment
There’s nothing wrong with becoming enlightened and also being saved (however we see that Christian process unfolding). For me, it’s best expressed in Theosis.
Optimist: Someone who figures that taking a step backward after taking a step forward is not a disaster, it’s a cha-cha. – Robert Brault
You have made clear what you understand. I was more interested in delineating the apostles’ understanding, which appears to be that Jesus is Lord, and that confessing this is important.
I know this guy was covered before, in another forum thread. But this comes today, in the Patheos Evangelical newsletter. While LLC likes the Old Testament…and its “continuation”, in the life of Jesus…This guy takes the opposite approach.
What’s more relevant for me, is this article. That brings Native American Catholics, in a mass.
I hope the Church of the East (Eastern Orthodox) meets the Church of the West (Roman Catholic)…along with the Eagle (Red Road, Native American spirituality) meets the Condor (Native American, Amazon Road spirituality).
Davo, The right hand of God is the power and authority of the Holy Spirit. No, Jesus was not the only at the His right hand.
Deut. 33:2-3 “The Lord came from Sinai, and dawned on them from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran, and He came with ten thousands of saints; from his right hand came a fiery law for them. Yes , He loves the people; all His saints are in Your hand.”
Isaiah 63:11-12 “Where is He who put His Holy Spirit in them, who led them by the right hand of Moses with His glorious arm, dividing the water before them to make for Himself an everlasting name.”
Read the Old Testament.
Bob, The rulers of Israel at that time were claiming to be the sons of Abraham, sons of God, and heirs to the throne. But, they were not. Sons of Abraham are those who follow the Spirit of God and obey His voice just as the father Abraham did. As Genesis 18: 19 says “For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the Lord, to do righteousness and justice.”
LLC, you can cite and tout the old covenant writings all you want, but everyone remains flabbergasted that you appear to think this justifies you in just ignoring the reality that the N.T. apostles regularly assert their belief that it’s crucial to recognize that Jesus is LORD. You appear non-responsive to what is an observation of a plain reality that exegetes across the whole theological spectrum recognize.
This article from today’s Patheos, Evangelical newsletter - might be of interest here.
Yet another perfect example LLC of the weakness of your position… to back-up your doubtful claim that Christ alone is not seated at… “the right hand of God” — a euphemism for divine authority you cite two texts mentioning Israel being… “in His hand” — a euphemism for favoured protection (Jn 10:28-29). And the other being led by the delegated hand of Moses under the auspices of His righteous arm, i.e., His power. NEITHER example places ANYONE at the right hand of God; a position Christ finally came to through his obedience, being appointed both Lord and Christ.
That YOU can see your proposition in those text BUT NOT see other EXTREMELY PLAIN TEXTS to the contrary demonstrates one thing alone… you will not see what you don’t want to believe — sorry for being too blunt.
Davo, we all know that God does not have physical hands. God’s right hand denotes the power, authority and strength of the Spirit. Did Moses have power over the enemy, setting captives free by his own hand or by the power and authority of the Holy Spirit? David was also granted to sit at the right hand of God, and so are we. As Romans says, if we are Abraham’s children, then we are co-heirs with Christ, and all that is God’s is ours as well. Rev. 3:21 “To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne.”
Hum! Well, what do you know? The non-denominational site Got Questions, has some input - on God’s right hand.
Given you are at God’s right hand right now, how does all “the power, authority and strength of the Spirit” work through you… like what does that look like?
Davo, Gal. 5:13 " serve one another humbly in love."
Using your God given talents you " offer your bodies as a living sacrifice holy and pleasing to God. This is true and proper worship." ( Romans12:1)
“Fear the Lord and serve Him faithfully with all your heart.”
Love God, walk according to is ways, follow His commands and serve Him with all your heart, mind and soul.
Produce the fruit of the Spirit.
As Luke 6:40 says "A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.
How can one servant of God be exalted above another servant of God?