The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Eye for an Eye

I believe that God was so stern in the o.t. to give contrast to the new testament.

One could not appreciate His mercy without first knowing His wrath.

Just a footnote here. Since you take a deterministic approach to scripture. There is a Christian theologian, who also is a bible translator. He has a website and Bible. And believes in a no-free-will approach to theology. Another chap here tried to clone his ideas. He did a poor job of “selling” them. But you might want to check this theologian and translator out.

Could you not know that your parents are (or were) merciful people even though they never struck you or shouted to you in anger? I know my parents were merciful, even though they never struck me or shouted to me in anger.

Origen pointed me to Knoch and concordant publishing. I would tend to agree with them.

1 Cor.10:1-4 clearly states that Moses was teaching the SAME things as Jesus.

No offence to anyone, but I don’t adhere to the Roman Catholic faith or any other faith besides the one that Jesus taught.
Did Jesus say to eat fish on Friday? If it’s a sin to eat meat on Friday then you shouldn’t be eating it Sat.-Thurs. either.
Did Jesus say to build elaborate cathedrals or a literal city of gold in honor of God? No. He said YOU are a temple to the Holy Spirit.
Did Jesus say you have go to a seminary and study the bible in order to teach the word of God? No. We are to spread the word by being living examples.
My list could go on and on, however, I’ll stop here.
We are warned that many will come in Jesus’ name teaching strange doctrines, but we are to hold fast to the word. This is what they did to Moses. However, some held fast to his word and continued to teach the truth.

Yes. The truth as they see it. Which is one of the problems - with Sola Scriptura. Where in a recent Catholic program, they mentioned there are 33, 000 different Protestant denominations. And you see the endless variations, here on the forum. Sacred Tradition is the lens - passed down historically - through which we see Sacred Scripture.

Having said this…I 'm not so concerned whether folks see everything as complete in 70 AD…Christ is on the same level, as Moses… we have no free will…the zombies are coming…the devil is responsible for everything…etc. I’m more concerned with how folks are emulating Christ…and trying to put into practice, what he teaches. And how they view Christ and what he has accomplished, for the human race.

Which raises a big question for me. If God can take Enoch and Elijah, so that they don’t experience death…why can’t God (in the personage of heavenly father) have done, the same thing for Christ? Are you REALLY being true to seeing Christ, in light of Old Testament teachings?

Christ does live on in the people who follow the Spirit of God.1Cor. 12:27 “Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.” Enoch and Elijah both lived on in their followers, one of which was Jesus, as he said "Elijah has come already and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished.’(Matt.17:12)

Do you not see the teachings of Christ in the book of Proverbs or in the Prophets?
Isaiah 58: 6-10 “Is this not the fast that I have chosen: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, to let the oppressed go free, and that you break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry, and that you bring to your house the poor who are cast out; when you see the naked , that you cover him, and not hide yourself from your own flesh…If you extend your soul to the hungry and satisfy the afflicted soul then your light shall dawn in the darkness…”

Of course, the Old Testament is to prepare - the way for Christ.

And anyone can quote scripture, to prove their point of view. I have even seen this happen, with Christian Scientists, Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons. All using just the Protestant Bible. Of course, all these views can’t possible be correct. Unless we postulate parallel universes and dimensions. And then each is correct, in its corresponding universe and dimension.

Heck, I just came up with a theory…where everyone on this forum, is theologically and philosophically correct.

Heck. I can even quote Bible verses…to prove my theory…that the ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE…is the most probable, end-times tribulation scenario.

Bible Verses About Zombies

Let me quote a bit, from the second article:

In some places like Haiti and Africa there are indeed people who practice voodoo and witchcraft and make the dead walk again. When someone dies they either go to Heaven or Hell. These are not the actual person. These are demons that are in that person’s body. Jesus performed many miracles such as resurrecting people. People get this confused with zombies. When people are resurrected they are 100% alive back to their regular self just like how they were before. Zombies are mindless dead people. They are not alive, but they are walking.

From what I hear, mankind is supposed to be evolving, progressing, growing into a better understanding of God and heading toward utopia. :slightly_smiling_face:

This could be very well true if we believe in a loving God that wants creation to advance. Thanks LLC

MM, If God continues to give man a choice, I suppose it could go either way or just back and forth/ death and resurrection, as it seems to have always been.
As Moses says in Deut. 30:15-18 “See I have set before you today life and good, death and evil in that I command you today to love the Lord your God to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you possess. But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, I announce to you today that you shall surely perish.”

This pretty much sums up what Christ came and told the Israelites. You are right, if man is continued to be given a choice, there will be problems and conflict. But the love of the Father to give said creation a freedom, is the paramount idea of what God was calling for the Israelites to do, and thus the Christians. We are called to curb our urges, our free will when under Christ is self controlled. And we as a people and as a world society will better things concerning life and death, good and bad, death and life.
:wink:

MM, I agree. The people of God are called to keep the faith in good times and bad times. As scripture and history both show, there will be times when many go astray and Christians/ Israelites are few in number. But, these “dark” times are only temporary because the “light” does return as promised.

The same might be said for my theory…that the ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE…is the most probable, end-times tribulation scenario. We might have some dark times. And zombies might not be, in our best interests. But eventually God will set things straight and defeat the devil and evil angels. And create the new heaven and the new earth. And there might even be a place, for zombies in it. :blush:

One might think so. For Jesus said:

Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
(Matt 5:19 ESV)

However, his very next sentence reads:

For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. (verse 20)

Now the Pharisees prided themselves in keeping the Mosaic law to the letter. So how could the righteousness of Jesus’ disciples exceed that?

And right away, Jesus explained that the true Law of God went far beyond the Mosaic law. He spelled out that Law, showing how much better it was than the Mosaic Law:

You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison.
Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.

You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.

You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your nemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.(verses 21-48)