Face to face

[davidbo]

1 Cor 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

In the last few years I have become quite fascinated by this scripture. I read it many, many times as a kid and even memorized it. It has always been a most comforting couple of sentences to me.

Now I may be completely in the weeds here but I think this scripture is saying something absolutely fantastical.

Here’s how I see it.

God knows EVERTHING about me, EVERYTHING. He knows my thoughts, hopes, dreams, fears, what I think about each person I know, everything. He knows all of my past thoughts and actions, present thoughts and actions, and future thoughts and actions, everything.

I am fully known by God. In fact God knows infinitely more about me than I do about myself.

Now think very carefully about this:

    - God knows me fully.

    - Someday I will know (God) as He fully knows me now.

I’m not a math expert but I think these bullet points can be constructed as an equation or formula. Anyone know?

The implications of this are staggering. STAGGERING.

Or maybe not because the original Greek just doesn’t allow it to be boiled down this way. I’m not a Greek scholar so I can’t say.

However, earlier in 1 Corinthians, Paul gave us this:

1 Cor 2:10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

It seems to me that Paul is making another rather fantastic claim here that sets the stage for our 1 Cor 13 scripture.

You know what you are thinking, but I don’t because I’m not you. Only you can know what you are thinking. Apparently, it is the spirit of a man that allows him to know his own thoughts.

So, if God knows my thoughts, then how? Perhaps because He breathed into me His breath of life, His spirit, and so now He knows my every thought?

Paul makes the claim that we may know the very thoughts (mind) of God because we have his spirit. So does it work both ways? God knows our thoughts and we can know His because we share the same spirit?

Now all this knowing thoughts stuff is really intriguing to me but it gets really wild when in the same verses in 1 Cor 13 Paul also ties in the mirror analogy.

When you look into the mirror who do you see? Unless you’re a vampire you see a reflection of yourself.

Paul says that now we can barely make out what we see in the mirror – merely a glimpse, just a hint of what’s there if we could only see the full image.

Some day I will look into the mirror and see in crystal clarity for the first time the true image of myself and I will fully know.

What will I see and know?

What will you see and know?

I’d really like to know what you think.

[redhotmagma]

Yes David Yes. You see it. I know what you’re saying exactly. That verse was one that has changed my thinking tremendously.

For we have the mind of Christ.

The greek in that verse is: to see for now through a mirror in enigma

When we look into the mirror we see an enigma, a riddle

Theres a parallel verse Num 12:8 With him I will speak face to face openly not in riddles; and he will see the form(image)of YHWH

The word mirror is esoptron. Eis=into and optanomai=to behold something remarkable. The word optanomai is used almost exclusively of seeing the risen Lord.

2 co 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

back to the riddle part
James 1: 23For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; 24for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was.

The word natural is genesis,

These are all the usages of mirror in the NT. James and 1 Co are the same word, 2 Co is a different word

[davidbo]

Yes David Yes. You see it. I know what you’re saying exactly. That verse was one that has changed my thinking tremendously.

For we have the mind of Christ.

The greek in that verse is: to see for now through a mirror in enigma

When we look into the mirror we see an enigma, a riddle

Theres a parallel verse Num 12:8 With him I will speak face to face openly not in riddles; and he will see the form(image)of YHWH

The word mirror is esoptron. Eis=into and optanomai=to behold something remarkable. The word optanomai is used almost exclusively of seeing the risen Lord.

2 co 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

back to the riddle part
James 1: 23For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; 24for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was.

The word natural is genesis,

These are all the usages of mirror in the NT. James and 1 Co are the same word, 2 Co is a different word

redhot,

Thanks much for the new (to me) Greek insights, just beautiful. Amazing really.

[stuartd]

the thing that fascinates me regarding that verse is the wording [English rendering admittedly] when Paul himself says
‘‘for now I [note the word I] know in part…’’ this is the Apostle Paul himself saying this of himself so just where does
that leave us ?

[Matt_Wiley]

1 Cor 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

In the last few years I have become quite fascinated by this scripture. I read it many, many times as a kid and even memorized it. It has always been a most comforting couple of sentences to me.

Now I may be completely in the weeds here but I think this scripture is saying something absolutely fantastical.

Here’s how I see it.

God knows EVERTHING about me, EVERYTHING. He knows my thoughts, hopes, dreams, fears, what I think about each person I know, everything. He knows all of my past thoughts and actions, present thoughts and actions, and future thoughts and actions, everything.

I am fully known by God. In fact God knows infinitely more about me than I do about myself.

Now think very carefully about this:

• God knows me fully.

• Someday I will know (God) as He fully knows me now.

I’m not a math expert but I think these bullet points can be constructed as an equation or formula. Anyone know?

The implications of this are staggering. STAGGERING.

Or maybe not because the original Greek just doesn’t allow it to be boiled down this way. I’m not a Greek scholar so I can’t say.

However, earlier in 1 Corinthians, Paul gave us this:

1 Cor 2:10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

It seems to me that Paul is making another rather fantastic claim here that sets the stage for our 1 Cor 13 scripture.

You know what you are thinking, but I don’t because I’m not you. Only you can know what you are thinking. Apparently, it is the spirit of a man that allows him to know his own thoughts.

So, if God knows my thoughts, then how? Perhaps because He breathed into me His breath of life, His spirit, and so now He knows my every thought?

Paul makes the claim that we may know the very thoughts (mind) of God because we have his spirit. So does it work both ways? God knows our thoughts and we can know His because we share the same spirit?

Now all this knowing thoughts stuff is really intriguing to me but it gets really wild when in the same verses in 1 Cor 13 Paul also ties in the mirror analogy.

When you look into the mirror who do you see? Unless you’re a vampire you see a reflection of yourself.

Paul says that now we can barely make out what we see in the mirror – merely a glimpse, just a hint of what’s there if we could only see the full image.

Some day I will look into the mirror and see in crystal clarity for the first time the true image of myself and I will fully know.

What will I see and know?

What will you see and know?

I’d really like to know what you think.

Beautiful thoughts, man This is one of my favorite verses in Scripture too

It’s like a promise And a wonderful one at that.

And the knowledge that we will have will not be so much head knowledge I think as heart knowledge… with the context of Cor 13 being about love, it would be my guess that we will fully know God not as we would know an idea, but as we would know a person we are intimately close to… as a mother and child know one another when the child is in the womb, sharing every breath and heartbeat, or as a loving husband and a beloved wife know one another in the marriage bed, seeking to unite not only their bodies, but everything that they are, to become as one…
God already knows us in this way… I think His purpose is that we would know Him in this way as well…

It’s a little bit scary to be sure, that kind of closeness… but it’s beautiful too, and something inside of us longs for it…

[redhotmagma]

or as a loving husband and a beloved wife know one another in the marriage bed, seeking to unite not only their bodies, but everything that they are, to become as one…
God already knows us in this way… I think His purpose is that we would know Him in this way as well…

The two shall become one, this is a great mystery concerning Christ and the church

The mystery hidden since ages past is Christ in you, the hope of glory