It is hardly reasonable nor scholarly of you to list a series of claims against my position demanding I then clarify YOUR contentions when you have not produced ANY evidence to back up said assertions. I have considerable written material on this site so there is ample evidence to draw from, so please furnish direct quotes that claim as you do above.
Again… if you are going to make such statements, back them up — but don’t expect me to unravel your mess of assumptions — I would expect this from the likes of Origen, not you. Feel free to pull your above paragraph apart and jot-point each assertion against an argument made by me to the contrary; again… quotes NOT assumptions.
MY assumptions? Your post indicates YOUR presumptions!
I was not suggesting that that which I included in my post was your position. I was ASKING you whether those concepts indicated your position. Indeed I was attempting to understand your position. Those thoughts occurred to me as POSSIBLY being your position. That’s why I set them forth. I was not accusing you of anything, and truly believed I was asking you these questions in all humility in order that I might better understand you.
However, if you cannot answer, or are unwilling to answer, that also tells me something.
Actually, it’s NOT the scholars, that reach the most people.
Take something like the Calvinist site, Got Questions. They answer a HUGH variety of questions. They put the responses, in SIMPLE terms (even if it has, a Calvinist slant - at times). And they have A LARGE CONTINGENCY - of Google and Bing juice.
Folks here (and elsewhere), can take a lesson from them.
Or let’s take the BEST, direct response copywriters. They NORMALLY talk, to an eight-grade, educational level. And they give you psychological reasons, to buy a product. And they talk like they are speaking to a friend - in a bar.
And guess what? The BEST make millions in royalties.
Even if I’m trying to sell, the tribulation and Zombie Apocalypse. I try to keep it simple.
Zombies BAAAD. Christ GOOOOD.
It’s NOT criticizing ANY PARTICULAR person here, mind you. Just SHARING some wisdom and insights.
So starting at the start… can you then point to a post of mine where you have attained this idea or suggestion that of God’s rancid hatred toward mankind?
That is kind of the quagmire that you continue to propagate.
First of all, we have to look at what HEAVEN really is. The post mortem part will unfortunately be an everlasting source of confusion, because to be honest the scriptures have little to say about it and much of our debate is simply conjecture.
But you said something that was interesting. You said that certain people 'labor continually to oppose the post mortem consequences for how people live this life that Scripture clearly teaches ’
You are acting like a fool. The pantelist view is that God understands and Christ came to take away sin for all of us. For Israel first and then the rest of us.
It all really comes down to if you believe Christ really took the sins of the whole world and man has been reconciled to God.
Nut shell bible stuff. You either believe it or you don’t. The Pantelist position is that He has. Yep, child molesters, serial murderers, adulterers, thieves, white liars, those who cheat on their taxes… All are in the right way with God. And he deals with them in HIS WAY.
Good luck to you, because your path is tough. My path is an understanding of a God who loves me and He and His son solidified the deal.
You certainly haven’t STATED that God hated mankind. But here is what I just discovered about your beliefs and that for which I have been searching for a long time:
Everyone is saved. (Chad stated this, and you agreed)
We are saved from a Godless eternity.
These beliefs are what led me to ask the questions that I asked. For we couldn’t be saved from a Godless eternity unless there were a possibility of undergoing a Godless eternity. If there were no such possibility, then there would be nothing from which to be saved!
And unless I misunderstand you, you believe that if Christ hadn’t died for all mankind as the substitute for every person, then every person would be assigned to a Godless eternity. But what would be God’s motivation is so assigning everyone if Jesus, the Anointed One, hadn’t died for all? Would it not be hate? Or at least strong displeasure? But displeasure with WHAT? Would it be the evil doings of mankind with which He would be displeased? But now (as I think you understand it), God no longer hates or is displeased with mankind, so that no one is assigned to a Godless eternity. But WHY? Why should Jesus’ death and/or resurrection remove God’s wrath or displeasure?
As I see it, the only way to remove God’s displeasure with our wrongdoing is for us to cease from our wrongdoing, and this we cannot consistently do through mere self-effort, but we CAN consistently live righteously by receiving the enabling grace of God, made available through the death and resurrection of Christ. And this enabling grace is appropriated through faith.
For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)
Jesus and Scripture never said it would be a cake walk. Quite the contrary, my friend.
As for your thing with Pantelism, i’m happy for you that it makes you happy & appears to be having a positive influence on your life, towards Love Omnipotent, i.e. the Creator.
Of course Purgatorial Universalists also believe in salvation for the wicked through Christ. We just don’t quite see exactly eye to eye on how that will play out in the after life.
You make some massive, though misguided, leaps of logic concerning my position… I suspect based entirely off your own presuppositions… given as you now affirm… “You certainly haven’t STATED that God hated mankind.” — thankyou.
What I find a little odd however is this newly “just discovered” evidence you say… “I have been searching for a long time” when that which I’ve stated on this you yourself just acknowledged further back up the page RIGHT AFTER my post where I provided you the direct hyperlink — just look at your opening paragraph following my post; so like what gives? And yet, even so, it’s been a mere 6wks since when I answered (yet again) the same that you keep saying no-one ever answers; again what gives? As per…
Now, as to your objectionable rationale…
What’s in red seems a given. However… the “lost eternity” from the pantelist perspective has naught to do with some apparent hatred or displeasure on God’s part toward His good creation of man (a little revealing you automatically conclude this as your first option), but this…
Man in the Garden in his fallen state had the ability to reach out, grasp and imbibe of the ‘Tree of Life’ and thus in consequence… “live forever” — HAD THAT occurred then ‘the SIN condition’ would have been immortalised and upon death man lost forever, separated from his Maker in the Sheol. Jesus removed and destroyed the sin CONDITION, i.e., Jn 1:29…
It is absolutely voluminous that by your own mindset you rank hatred and displeasure together… “Would it not be hate? Or at least strong displeasure?” and yet seek to pin such to my position WHEN by your own words such fits more in-line with your theology as stated right here by your words…
Surely if the cap fits, just where it.
Paul’s words to Timothy have nothing to do with nor say anything about “a free pass to heaven” as you have mentioned elsewhere — all such enabling grace is 100% pertinent to THIS LIFE, thus… to deliver us from wrongdoing and to train us to live “self-controlled, upright, and godly lives.”
Sometimes certain debates, can go on for centuries (like those HERE, between Full Preterism and its derivatives vs ALL other positions) . As the following cartoon illustrates.
In case you are wondering…It’s from a question today, on particle physics at https://www.quora.com.
Yes, the link that Randy provided about gives VARIOUS uses of “γενεα.”
I have already provided the first one that Randy’s link gave concerning “γενεα” meaning “race”, but perhaps you didn’t agree that it IS one:
I asked the question whether Jesus was likely speaking to the Israelites, the people of his own race, or addressing all people that were alive at that time. The Link also provides Mark 9:19 and Luke 9:41. But they are just Mark and Luke’s account of the same words.
Here are two other verses which the link gave as examples of “γενεα” being “a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character”:
How could the children of light deal with all the people living at that time? Was it not that the children of that age were shrewd in dealing with their own people, while the children of light were not wise in dealing with theirs (the Jews)?
How could they save themselves from all the people alive at that time? They were PART of all the people who were alive. But they could save themselves from the corruption that pervaded the Jewish people of that day.
Well, the cap fits everyone of us, and so we all need to wear that cap. No one has yet ceased entirely from wrongdoing, though that is the direction in which every true Christian is moving. Salvation is a process. And our participation in that process is pleasing to God.
George MacDonald certainly would have agreed with my statement above that you quoted.
—George MacDonald, Unspoken Sermons III, Righteousness
Well, to you salvation is a process, to me it is a done deal. Thanks to Christ who did the deal. You seem to want to continue to view Christ’s death as a possible salvation, I view it as a realized salvation. Good for you, good for me, whatever be the thought. Let’s let the others view and believe for them selves.
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Rom 5:11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
2Co 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
It is interesting that you continually quote GMAC and not scripture when dealing with this particular subject.
More:
2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Now the astute among you will have to ask the question, ‘so if this all happened back then (in history like you are always touting) what good is it now’? And that is a good question. In my view we start to view scripture as a historical guidepost. We are progressing but can look at Gods dealings with Israel as a building block and not as an absolute. At least not in our time here and now.
Is that what all Pantelists believe, you, davo & that link included? That salvation is a “done deal” & not a “possible salvation”, since the cross c. 30 A.D.? Then why does Scripture not say so? Moreover, why does Scripture plainly oppose such a notion:
Acts 2:21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
Acts 2:40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”
Acts 2:47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
Acts 16: 30 Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Qaz, do you think those that provided these examples of the word meaning “race” in the link Randy provided, were “using a double standard”?
I’ll answer that: no they weren’t, and neither am I doing so.
All I asked you was whom it was that Jesus was addressing—the generation of people living at the same time (not at all meaning every individual living at that time) or our Lord’s people, the Jews (not at all meaning every single Jew in the world).
I don’t understand why that question is too much for you. Is there a reason why you cannot accept our Lord’s words as being addressed to His own people group?
What Chad mentions is the big picture or the overall fullness and reach of God’s work in Christ ON BEHALF OF all… thus the complete salvation (redemption/reconciliation) of mankind on the macro level. Now within that is how individuals might further imbibe of the blessedness of this fulfilled reality which in itself ALSO works a deliverance (salvation) on the micro level… check out my link HERE.
Origen, I do not know who you are personally, but you seem to dismiss the evidence that salvation in the first century is different from the 2018 reality of what God is doing in our world. You seem to be stuck in an archaic belief system, not allowing that the very God that created us made us unique and special, and may have wanted us (here and now) to go through hard times to allow us to minister, to be servants, to be able to in our own way be as the first century Christians were, a light to the darkened people?
I’m not sure how the Preterists here, would respond to this. But to present their side (NOT becoming one, mind you)…Here is a Q and A by a Preterist at
P.S. The closest I could ever become, is a partial preterist - like New Testament, Anglican scholar N.T. Wright. Unless a Preterist can convince me, that the Zombie Apocalypse occurred around 70 AD. And why the church fathers, envisioned a future return of Christ - within the historical, orthodox creeds.
And yet, even so, it’s been a mere 6wks since when I answered (
