Facts to be Considered by All Full Preterists

[Paidion]

I think the fact that no early Christian writer who wrote after 70 A.D., referred to the second coming of Christ as an event in the past or one that occurred during his lifetime, is significant as evidence against the view that He came in 70 A.D.

Surely if Christ had returned in 70 A.D., then at least one Christian writer who had lived through that period would have mentioned it. The argument from silence, though not a formal proof, notwithstanding, is a strong indicator. Can you imagine all writers who lived through a major event such as the holocaust having made no mention of it? And what event could be more significant than the second coming of Christ?

Here are some of the early writers to whom I refer:

1 Clement of Rome (30-100 A.D.), fellow labourer with Paul (Philippians 4:3), and whose letter to the Corinthians has been dated 97 A.D.

2 Letter to Diognetus dated 130 A.D.

3 Polycarp (65-155 A.D.), letter to the Philippians, probably written in the early second century.

4 Ignatius (30-107 A.D.), fifteen letters are ascribed to him.

5 Letter of Barnabas, written about 100 A.D.

Indeed Barnabas wrote of the coming of Christ as an event future to himself. See chapter 15.

Justin Martyr (110-165 A.D.), though he hadn’t yet been born during the destruction of Jerusalem, also, in his “Dialogue with Trypho” spoke of the second coming as a future event, including even the Antichrist. Here is a quote from “Dialogue with Trypho:

…two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians.

[Bob_Wilson]

If some N.T. epistles are post AD70, wouldn’t their silence about such an eschatology being fulfilled be a problem for full preterism also?

[Paidion]

If some N.T. epistles are post AD70, wouldn’t their silence about such an eschatology being fulfilled be a problem for full preterism also?

I would say so—but is there any clear evidence that any of them were written after 70 A.D.?

[Cindy_Skillman]

Very helpful, Paidion. Thanks!

[davo]

I wouldn’t be as audacious to claim what follows as “FACTS” but other options to consider…

To some this poses a problem – why the silence post Parousia? – what happened after AD 70? Could such apparent or awkward “silence” be explained thus:

Judg 2:10 Moreover, in time death overtook all that generation; and there arose another generation after them, that did not know (recognise, understand)* the LORD, nor yet the work which He had wrought for Israel.*

Psa 78:42-43 They did not remember His power: the day when He redeemed them from the enemy. When He worked His signs in Egypt, and His wonders in the field of Zoan.

As it was for Israel post Egyptian bondage, so might it have been for new covenant Israel when they came out of Sin-Death bondage in AD70; within a generation some forgot the work that God had wrought on their behalf.

Or, could it have been that “Christians” who in that time were predominately viewed as a sect within Judaism, and that due to the whole-scale destruction of practicing Judaism throughout Palestine in the Roman-Jewish wars, that the Church as it was in its infancy fell into a self-protective and preservative silence; given the ravenous persecutions of the age I would suggest this could have been a factor.

Or perhaps one further thought might suffice – a simple explanation as to the apparent and yet frightful to some “silence” post Parousia might simply be that of REALISED REDEMPTION – all was complete – there was nothing left to say. Whether it was realised or not, through the AD30-70 Cross-Parousia event Israel and consequently humanity had been fully redeemed and reconciled back to God. Yet on the other hand it has been man-meddling “religion” (Mk 7:13) following on somewhat later that taking a while to gather up its feet has delivered to us what we know of it today.

Below are but a few random quotes indicative of others viewing Christ’s parousia (presence) as being a foregone event…

“Therefore He added moreover, /And this gospel shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all nations, and then shall the end come/, of the downfall of Jerusalem. For in proof that He meant this, and that before the taking of Jerusalem the Gospel was preached, hear what Paul saith, /Their sound went into all the earth/; and again, /The Gospel which was preached to every creature which is under Heaven/. And seest thou him running from Jerusalem unto Spain? And if one took so large a portion, consider what the rest also wrought. For writing to others also, Paul again saith concerning the Gospel, that /it is bringing forth fruit, and growing up in every creature which is under Heaven/. But what meaneth, /For a witness to all nations/? Forasmuch as though it was everywhere preached, yet it was not everywhere believed. It was for a witness, He saith, to them that were disbelieving, that is, for conviction, for accusation, for a testimony; for they that believed will bear witness against them that believed not, and will condemn them. And for this cause, after the Gospel is preached in every part of the world, Jerusalem is destroyed [at AD 70], that they may not have so much as a shadow of an excuse for their perverseness.” – Saint John Chrysostom (347 - 407)

“The ‘second coming,’ ‘appearing,’ or ‘revelation,’ of Christ, in his regal and judicial glory, took place about the time of the final dispersion of the Jews, at the end of the Mosaic age. The general resurrection and day or age of judgment, then commenced in the invisible world, denoted to mortals only by the remarkable signs, terrors, and dreadful events, attendant on the destruction of Jerusalem. Then all departed souls in Hades came forth, clothed with immortality, before the judgment seat of Christ, they that had done good to the resurrection of life, and they that had done evil unto the resurrection of condemnation. The patriarchs, prophets, apostles and saints, who had previously finished their course on earth, and were resting in hope, then entered into their glory in the resurrection of the just.” – Adin Ballou (1803 - 1890)

“In six or seven years from the time of writing [of 1 Peter], the overthrow of Jerusalem, with all its tragic stories, as foretold in the Book of Revelation and in the Olivet Discourse upon which that part is based, would take place. Titus and Vespasian would wipe out the old order once and for all. All those forces that led to the persecution and exile of these Christians in Asia Minor – the temple ceremonies (outdated by Christ’s death), Pharisaism (with its distortion of O.T. law into a system of works-righteousness) and the political stance of Palestinian Jewry toward Rome – would be erased. The Roman armies would wipe Jewish opposition from the face of the land. Those who survived the holocaust of A.D. 70 would themselves be dispersed around the Mediterranean world. ‘So,’ says Peter, ‘hold on; the end is near’ [1 Peter 1:7]. The full end of the O.T. order (already made defunct by the cross and the empty tomb) was about to occur.” – Jay Adams (1929 - )

“It is greatly to be regretted that those who, in our day, give themselves to the study and exposition of prophecy, seem not to be aware of the /immense significance/ of the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, which was accompanied by the extinction of Jewish national existence, and the dispersion of the Jewish people among all the nations. The failure to recognize the significance of that event, and the vast amount of prophecy which it fulfilled, has been the cause of great confusion, for the necessary consequence of missing the past fulfilment of predicted events is to leave on our hands a mass of prophecies for which we must needs contrive fulfilments in the future. The harmful results are two fold; for first, we are thus deprived of the evidential value, and the support to the faith, of those remarkable fulfilments of prophecy which are so clearly presented to us in authentic contemporary histories; and second, our vision of things to come is greatly obscured and confused by the transference to the future of predicted events which, in fact, have already happened, and whereof complete records have been preserved for our information.” – Philip Mauro (1859 - 1952)

I’m also intrigued that not too many here seem aware of the fact, and it is a fact, that many 18th-19th century Universalists held to a prêterist theology with regards to NT prophecy.

HERE are a couple…

Second Coming of Christ. – This has already taken place (Matt. 24:24-31, 16:27, 28, 10:23 ; Rev. 1:3, etc.) He came in the generation living at the time of Jerusalem’s destruction. " Universalist Book of Reference;" Hanson’s " Bible Threatenings Explained."]

Coming of Christ, Second, etc. – The second coming of Christ was not to be a personal, but a spiritual coming or presence. It was declared by Jesus to be before some of those who heard him speak should die, in the very generation to which he spoke (Matt. 24:34; Luke 21:32; Mark 13:30), when the Jewish power and religion fell at the destruction of Jerusalem, and when the Christian dispensation was established. It has, therefore, already occurred; and those who are looking for his future advent are anticipating not a second but a third coming. “Universalist Book of Reference.”]

Death, Second. – Rev. 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8. The primary meaning of second death in the Scriptures is the second destruction of the Jewish nation. The first death was the captivity. But “by accommodation” we may say that those who awaken out of sin, after having died in trespasses and sins, and then relapse, have died a second death. The language, however, literally refers to the second devastation of the Jews, after their first national death which was in the Babylonish captivity, and the second when Jerusalem was destroyed. But it was also applied to those who had once been aroused from moral death, and again died in trespasses and sins. There is no propriety in applying it to endless torment. “Universalist Book of Reference;” Thayer’s “Theology.”]

Furnace of Fire. – (See “Fire,” “Eternal Fire,” “Gehenna”) This phrase is often used in the Bible. It had been the custom in the Old Testament to call God’s judgment a “furnace of fire.” In Isa. 31:9, “Whose fire is in Zion, and his furnace in Jerusalem.” Isa. 48:10, “The furnace of affliction.” In Deut. 4:20 and 1 Kings 8:51, Egypt is called an “iron furnace.” So in Ezek. 22:18-21, the house of Israel is called “brass, tin, iron, lead,” to be melted in God’s fiery furnace." Our Lord had this usage in mind; and Gehenna fire, etc., is used by him to denote the approaching judgments on Judea and Jerusalem. (Matt. 13:50) “Shall cast thee into the furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” This was literally fulfilled at his second coming at the destruction of Jerusalem, when the nation was overwhelmed. Wherever this language is found in the New Testament, it refers to the woes coming on our Lord’s country and race. [Hanson’s “Bible Threatenings Explained;” “Universalist Book of Reference;” and Paige’s “Commentary.”]

Hell Fire. – This phrase denotes the fire of Gehenna, the literal flame of the valley near Jerusalem, in which constant fires were kept burning to consume the offal and refuse of the city, into which criminals were cast, and which received the bodies of those who were slain when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman armies, as prophesied by our Lord, in Matt. 24, 25. It has no reference to punishment after death; or, indeed punishment anywhere else than in and near Jerusalem in the first century of the Christian era. The Revised Version places “Gehenna of fire” in the margin, to indicate the real meaning of “hell fire.” [Hanson’s; Bible Hell]

Universalist Everet Emmett Guild wrote…

We will also state that Dr. Macknight, Dr. Warburton, Bishop Newton, Dr. A. Clarke, and most others who have written on this subject, are unanimous in the opinion that what is strictly termed the second coming of Christ is a figurative coming, namely, in spirit or power; and that this took place at the destruction of Jerusalem, the abolition of the Jewish dispensation, and the establishment of the kingdom of heaven in the earth. That this opinion is correct, we think no well-informed mind will dispute.

[Eaglesway]

If some N.T. epistles are post AD70, wouldn’t their silence about such an eschatology being fulfilled be a problem for full preterism also?

Whether or not any are post 70 AD or not, there are a whole host of problematic scriptures for a full preterist view, not the least of which problems(imo) is that it they assume all those verses into metaphors and then use obscure interprative “maybe this means this” verses to confirm those assumptions.Dont misunderstand me. I love the many metaphors of scripture, but metaphoric interpretations do not always apply and certainly doesnt exclusively explain away the contradictions.

As in Adam all died so also in Christ must all be made alive, but each in his own order; Christ, the first fruits, then those who are His at His coming, then comes the end.

That is a verse, just as an example, that refers to the resurrection of the body- definitely. As does this one.

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

When “those who are His at His appearing” are resurrected, the revelation of the children of God will occur and the restorartion of the creation will begin in earnest. The timing(not in history but in signifigance) is defined as, “even the redemption of our bodies”.

In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures. James 1:18

We are to be a kinf of first-fruits of creation, and as Paul says the entire creation groans for us to be revealed with Him, and those verses begin with,

“For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to(eis into) us.”

Peter explained it like this

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Essentially the same thoughts as Paul in Romans 8 and James.

Peter proclaimed this immediately after being filled with the Holy Spirit on Pentecost…

Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

As this period is further described in the old and new testaments, it is clearer we are not yet in it )

Four things are tied together in all these verses.

The first-fruits, redemtion of our bodies, the appearing of the Lord, the restoration of all things… as Peter called it, “a new heavens and new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness”

The original gospel contained, not only to unbelievers the message, “Be saved from this perverse generation”- but also the awareness that we who believed and remained faithful to the end(end of our remaining lives) would participate in “the restoration of all things”

He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22’He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’"

And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7"He who overcomes will inherit these things…

The inheritance of the believer is to work with Christ in the restoration for which all creation is groaning, and that is why, as Paul says,'we also having the first fruits of the spirit graon inwardly as we eagerly await our sonship, the redemption of our bodies"

Paul ties this to the restoration of all things in Eph 1

In all wisdom and insight 9** He made known to us the mystery of His will**, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

With a view to the redemption of God’s own possession to the praise of His glory…

Every knee shall and every tongue confess Jesus Christ as Lord to the glory of God the Father…

I consider that our present sufferring is not to be caomared to the glory that is to be revealed to us…

that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.…

And then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea. They sang: "Blessing and honor and glory and power belong to the one sitting on the throne and to the Lamb forever and ever."…

"For the earth will be filled With the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.…

“whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time…”

even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The prophets spoke of the restoration of all things from ancient time. habbukuk and isaiah especially in clear terms, the language of which is perfectly mirrored by Paul and Peter. The prophets spoke of it because it was “prepared beforehand that we would walk in them”

12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven-- things into which angels long to look.

Angels long to look into them but it is reserved in heaven for a salvation(healing deliverance) ready to be revealed in the last time through the children of God at the redemption of their bodies- the “many sons unto glory” who will inherit these things and sit with Him on His throne and do the work preared beforehand which is the restoration of all things, because tghey have received the first-fruits with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession.But we look into them…

but just as it is written,
“THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD,
AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN,
ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.”

10For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.

I post ll those snips not to be a twit, but because until one sees them altogehter it may not become as clear as it obviously was to those who wrote using the same words about the same things, as they received from the Lord Himself… the whole cloth of the gospel.

they were not in the dark about anything nor did they misunderstand Jesus who ws with them 40 days after the resurrection teaching them and preparing them before the Holy Spirit came.

He was here to “reproduce Himself” in the 12, then in the 120 and then in all those who received His gospel and became disciples.

1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— 2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you; 3that **by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, **

In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

25Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.

Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.…

All of these verses tie into us as the first fruits of a revelation of the restoration of universal immortality that will work out in ages yet to come, "an administration suitable to the fulness(pleroma- completion, complete fulness) of times, each in their own order, and our participation in it as the first immortals after Christ, a kind of “first fruits of His creation”.

I am a “first fruits preterist”. I agree that the seed contains the full fruit, the first fruits foreshadow the full harvest, but not without the workers in the field, which stretches out over ages of glory yet to come. Many of the insights of preterists have blessed me… but I feel the same way about some of the things I learned as a Charismatic" and as a Nazarene"

The full preterist view is seriously defficient in understanding God’s plan of the ages and our part in it and the epochal/aionian changes that must yet occur.

“Whom the heavens must receive until the times of the restoration of all things”…

This age did not begin with the judgment of Jerusalem in 70AD…Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

The age began with the resurrection of Jesus from the dead, His ascenscion to His thron, and our receiving the first-fruits of the Spirit.

[Eaglesway]

If some N.T. epistles are post AD70, wouldn’t their silence about such an eschatology being fulfilled be a problem for full preterism also?

Whether or not any are post 70 AD or not, there are a whole host of problematic scriptures for a full preterist view, not the least of which(imo) is that it must assume all those verses into fact and then use obscure interprative “maybe this means this” verses to confirm those assumptions.

As in Adam all died so also in Christ must all be made alive, but each in his own order; Christ, the first fruits, then those who are His at His coming, then comes the end.

This is a verse, just as an example, that refers to the resurrection of the body- definitely. As does this one.

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

When “those who are His at His appearing” are resurrected, the revelation of the children of God will occur and the restorartion of the creation will begin in earnest. The timing(not in history but in signifigance) is defined as, “even the redemption of our bodies”.

In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures. James 1:18

We are to be a kinf of first-fruits of creation, and as Paul says the entire creation groans for us to be revealed with Him, and those verses begin with,

“For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to(eis into) us.”

Peter explained it like this

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Essentially the same thoughts as Paul in Romans 8 and James.

Peter proclaimed this immediately after being filled with the Holy Spirit on Pentecost…

Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

Three things are tied together in all these verses.

The redemtion of our bodies, the appearing of the Lord, the restoration of all things… as Peter called it, “a new heavens and new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness”

The original gospel contained not only to unbelievers the message, “Be saved from this perverse generation” but also the awareness that we who believed and remained faithful to the end(end of our remaining lives) would participate in the restoration of all things"

He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22’He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’"

And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7"He who overcomes will inherit these things…

The inheritance of the believer is to work with Christ in the restoration for which all creation is groaning, and that is why, as Paul says,'we also having the first fruits of the spirit graon inwardly as we eagerly await our sonship, the redemption of our bodies"

Paul ties this to the restoration of all things in Eph 1

In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things [m]in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

With a view to the redemption of God’s own possession to the praise of His glory…

Every knee shall and every tongue confess jesus Christ as Lord to the glory of God the Father…

I consideer that our present sufferring is not to be caomared to the glory that is to be revealed to us…

that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God…

And then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea. They sang: “Blessing and honor and glory and power belong to the one sitting on the throne and to the Lamb forever and ever.”…

"For the earth will be filled With the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea…

“whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time…”

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The prophets spoke of the restoration of all things from ancient time. habbukuk and isaiah especially in clear terms the language of which is perfectly mirrored by Paul and Peter. The prophets spoke of it because it was “prepared beforehand that we would walk in them”

12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven-- things into which angels long to look.

Angels long to look into them but it is reserved in heaven for a salvation(healing deliverance) ready to be revealed in the last time through the children of God at the redemption of their bodies- the “many sons unto glory” who will inherit these things and sit with Him on His throne and do the work preared beforehand which is the restoration of all things, because tghey have received the first-fruits with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession.

I post ll those snips not to be a twit, but because until one sees them altogehter it may not become as clear as it obviously was to those who wrote using the same words about the same things, as they received from the Lord Himself… the whole cloth of the gospel.

they were not in the dark about anything nor did they misunderstand Jesus who ws with them 40 days after the resurrection teaching them and preparing them before the Holy Spirit came.

He was here to “reproduce Himself” in the 12, then in the 120 and then in all those who received His gospel and became disciples.

1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— 2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you; 3that **by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, **

In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

25Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.

Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.…

All of these verses tie into us as the first fruits of a revelation of the restoration of universal immortality that will work out in ages yet to come, "an administration suitable to the fulness(pleroma- completion, complete fulness) of times, each in their own order, and our participation in it as the first immortals after Christ, a kind of “first fruits of His creation”.

I am a “first fruits preterist”. I agree that the seed contains the full fruit, the first fruits foreshadow the full harvest, but not without the workers in the field, which stretches out over ages of glory yet to come. Many of the insights of preterists have blessed me… but I feel the same way about some of the things I learned as a Charismatic" and as a Nazarene"

The full preterist view is seriously defficient in understanding God’s plan of the ages and our part in it and the epochal/aionian changes that must yet occur.

“Whom the heavens must receive until the times of the restoration of all things”…

This age did not begin with the judgment of Jerusalem in 70AD…Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

The age began with the resurrection of Jesus from the dead, His ascenscion to His thron, and our receiving the first-fruits of the Spirit.

[Eaglesway]

If some N.T. epistles are post AD70, wouldn’t their silence about such an eschatology being fulfilled be a problem for full preterism also?

Whether or not any are post 70 AD or not, there are a whole host of problematic scriptures for a full preterist view, not the least of which(imo) is that it must assume all those verses into metaphor and then use obscure interprative “maybe this means this” verses to confirm those assumptions.

As in Adam all died so also in Christ must all be made alive, but each in his own order; Christ, the first fruits, then those who are His at His coming, then comes the end.

This is a verse, just as an example, that refers to the resurrection of the body- definitely. As does this one.

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

When “those who are His at His appearing” are resurrected, the revelation of the children of God will occur and the restorartion of the creation will begin in earnest. The timing(not in history but in signifigance) is defined as, “even the redemption of our bodies”.

In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures. James 1:18

We are to be a kinf of first-fruits of creation, and as Paul says the entire creation groans for us to be revealed with Him, and those verses begin with,

“For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to(eis into) us.”

Peter explained it like this

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Essentially the same thoughts as Paul in Romans 8 and James.

Peter proclaimed this immediately after being filled with the Holy Spirit on Pentecost…

Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

Three things are tied together in all these verses.

The redemtion of our bodies, the appearing of the Lord, the restoration of all things… as Peter called it, “a new heavens and new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness”

The original gospel contained not only to unbelievers the message, “Be saved from this perverse generation” but also the awareness that we who believed and remained faithful to the end(end of our remaining lives) would participate in the restoration of all things"

He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22’He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’"

And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7"He who overcomes will inherit these things…

The inheritance of the believer is to work with Christ in the restoration for which all creation is groaning, and that is why, as Paul says,'we also having the first fruits of the spirit graon inwardly as we eagerly await our sonship, the redemption of our bodies"

Paul ties this to the restoration of all things in Eph 1

In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things [m]in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

With a view to the redemption of God’s own possession to the praise of His glory…

Every knee shall and every tongue confess jesus Christ as Lord to the glory of God the Father…

I consideer that our present sufferring is not to be caomared to the glory that is to be revealed to us…

that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God…

And then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea. They sang: “Blessing and honor and glory and power belong to the one sitting on the throne and to the Lamb forever and ever.”…

"For the earth will be filled With the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea…

“whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time…”

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The prophets spoke of the restoration of all things from ancient time. habbukuk and isaiah especially in clear terms the language of which is perfectly mirrored by Paul and Peter. The prophets spoke of it because it was “prepared beforehand that we would walk in them”

12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven-- things into which angels long to look.

Angels long to look into them but it is reserved in heaven for a salvation(healing deliverance) ready to be revealed in the last time through the children of God at the redemption of their bodies- the “many sons unto glory” who will inherit these things and sit with Him on His throne and do the work preared beforehand which is the restoration of all things, because tghey have received the first-fruits with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession.

I post ll those snips not to be a twit, but because until one sees them altogehter it may not become as clear as it obviously was to those who wrote using the same words about the same things, as they received from the Lord Himself… the whole cloth of the gospel.

they were not in the dark about anything nor did they misunderstand Jesus who ws with them 40 days after the resurrection teaching them and preparing them before the Holy Spirit came.

He was here to “reproduce Himself” in the 12, then in the 120 and then in all those who received His gospel and became disciples.

1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— 2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you; 3that **by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, **

In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

25Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.

Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.…

All of these verses tie into us as the first fruits of a revelation of the restoration of universal immortality that will work out in ages yet to come, "an administration suitable to the fulness(pleroma- completion, complete fulness) of times, each in their own order, and our participation in it as the first immortals after Christ, a kind of “first fruits of His creation”.

I am a “first fruits preterist”. I agree that the seed contains the full fruit, the first fruits foreshadow the full harvest, but not without the workers in the field, which stretches out over ages of glory yet to come. Many of the insights of preterists have blessed me… but I feel the same way about some of the things I learned as a Charismatic" and as a Nazarene"

The full preterist view is seriously defficient in understanding God’s plan of the ages and our part in it and the epochal/aionian changes that must yet occur.

“Whom the heavens must receive until the times of the restoration of all things”…

This age did not begin with the judgment of Jerusalem in 70AD…Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

The age began with the resurrection of Jesus from the dead, His ascenscion to His thron, and our receiving the first-fruits of the spirit.

[pilgrim]

Below are but a few random quotes indicative of others viewing Christ’s parousia (presence) as being a foregone event…

“Therefore He added moreover, /And this gospel shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all nations, and then shall the end come/, of the downfall of Jerusalem. For in proof that He meant this, and that before the taking of Jerusalem the Gospel was preached, hear what Paul saith, /Their sound went into all the earth/; and again, /The Gospel which was preached to every creature which is under Heaven/. And seest thou him running from Jerusalem unto Spain? And if one took so large a portion, consider what the rest also wrought. For writing to others also, Paul again saith concerning the Gospel, that /it is bringing forth fruit, and growing up in every creature which is under Heaven/. But what meaneth, /For a witness to all nations/? Forasmuch as though it was everywhere preached, yet it was not everywhere believed. It was for a witness, He saith, to them that were disbelieving, that is, for conviction, for accusation, for a testimony; for they that believed will bear witness against them that believed not, and will condemn them. And for this cause, after the Gospel is preached in every part of the world, Jerusalem is destroyed [at AD 70], that they may not have so much as a shadow of an excuse for their perverseness.” – Saint John Chrysostom (347 - 407)

Dav0, was the ‘[at AD 70]’ part of the original quote or have you added that?

[Agnostic_Gabe]

Below are but a few random quotes indicative of others viewing Christ’s parousia (presence) as being a foregone event…

“Therefore He added moreover, /And this gospel shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all nations, and then shall the end come/, of the downfall of Jerusalem. For in proof that He meant this, and that before the taking of Jerusalem the Gospel was preached, hear what Paul saith, /Their sound went into all the earth/; and again, /The Gospel which was preached to every creature which is under Heaven/. And seest thou him running from Jerusalem unto Spain? And if one took so large a portion, consider what the rest also wrought. For writing to others also, Paul again saith concerning the Gospel, that /it is bringing forth fruit, and growing up in every creature which is under Heaven/. But what meaneth, /For a witness to all nations/? Forasmuch as though it was everywhere preached, yet it was not everywhere believed. It was for a witness, He saith, to them that were disbelieving, that is, for conviction, for accusation, for a testimony; for they that believed will bear witness against them that believed not, and will condemn them. And for this cause, after the Gospel is preached in every part of the world, Jerusalem is destroyed [at AD 70], that they may not have so much as a shadow of an excuse for their perverseness.” – Saint John Chrysostom (347 - 407)

Dav0, was the ‘[at AD 70]’ part of the original quote or have you added that?

That was added. I did a web search and I can only find this text with that exclusion of that.

[Eaglesway]

I think Jerusalem was destroyed to bury the body that was nailed to a cross in Jesus, and to fulfill the prophecy He had made against them…

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.…(Col 2)

For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.…(Eph 2)

The two were reconciled and made one, the barrier removed in His flesh, the triumph complete when he was raised from the dead, the change of dispensation accomplished, the new age initiated.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. (Mt 27)

But as I posted before, Jesus, is received(ascended) in the heavens until the “period of the restoration of all things spoken by the mouth of all the holy prophets since ancient times”. In this age we have the "first-fruits of the Spirit and await the signal deliverance that will come to the whole creation along with Him when we are revealed as the children of God at the resurrection of our bodies, at the last trump, when he descends in glory with “10,000s upon 10,000s of His holy ones”.

The word of the Lord will cover the earth as the water covers the sea. At this time it seems to me- the earth is not yet so covered.

[davo]

Dav0, was the ‘[at AD 70]’ part of the original quote or have you added that?

That was added. I did a web search and I can only find this text with that exclusion of that.

That was indeed added… that’s what “]” would indicate. I didn’t add it, I found it on a prêterist fb page where the person listening the quote had inserted it.

[davo]

I think Jerusalem was destroyed to bury the body that was nailed to a cross in Jesus, and to fulfill the prophecy He had made against them…

I agree… and I further would say that the ‘body’ having being dealt with was the ‘corporate body’ of old covenant Israel. There WAS an OT promise unto national corporate “resurrection” i.e., a restoration/restitution of “all things” of “the Creation” aka “Israel” from the death of EXILE. It came in the form of covenant renewal (resurrection) in the Messiah (Jn 11:25)… it wasn’t coming in the crass “physical” form they were expecting or wanting, thus reinforcing the sin of Israel (1Sam 8:4-5, 19-20) as is seen here…

Jn 6:15 Therefore when Jesus perceived that they were about to come and take Him by force to make Him king, He departed again to the mountain by Himself alone.

IOW, if they didn’t recognise “the Day” of their visitation (Lk 1:68, 78; 19:44) then little hope of their understanding the latter “end of the days” aka “time of the end” (note: NOT the end of time) in terms of the AD70 DoJ “…when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered…” as per Dan 12:4, 7, 13.

[LLC]

It all depends on what the end is. The end of what? I would say since the bible is the story of Israel, it would mean the end of Israel. As John 1:1 says, in the beginning was the Word. Not only was the Word in the very beginning of creation, it was there in Israel’s beginning ( birth). Thus, Jesus (the Word) was also there in the end, restoring what had been become lost, beginning again with the word of God and a resurrection of people who follow that word.

[davo]

Yes the “end” in view was Israel’s OC world of ‘law-righteousness’. Jesus was the final or last and enduring Word of grace (Jn 1:16-17). Israel was of course “the creation” of Paul’s Rom 8 awaiting covenant renewal aka restoration/resurrection, i.e., “the redemption of our body”.

NOTE: Gk. body is singular, NOT plural bodies as in individual bodies. This was the fulfillment of Israel’s corporate resurrection as per Ezek 37:1-14. As I understand it Paul saw it this way…

Rom 8:19-23 KJV

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature (Israel) waiteth for the manifestation (in perfection) of the sons of God (NT firstfruit saints).
20 For the creature (Israel) was made subject to vanity (OC law), not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature (Israel) itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (OC law) into the glorious liberty (NC grace) of the children of God (NT firstfruit saints).
22 For we know that the whole creation (humanity) groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they (Israel-humanity), but ourselves (NT firstfruit saints) also, which have the firstfruits of the (eschatological) Spirit, even we ourselves (NT firstfruit saints) groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body (resurrection out of the OC ‘body of death’ 7:24).

[Eaglesway]

I would disagree that the Bible is the story of Israel, except perhaps according to a perspective limited to the last to ages, certainly at least in the national context. Realisticly, 70 years is a short time in biblical ages, so I don’t hav so much difficulty with the concept of a 70 year day during which the crucifixion of Christ through the destruction of Jerusalem could amount in someone’s mind to the shattering of the holy people, but the introduction of the Holy Spirit(for the Holy Spirit had not yet been given because Jesus had not been glorified) was certainly the beginning of the new Day. The story of Israel is one part of the story of the restoration of all things.

For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— 14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”
37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39** For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.**

All of the prophecies pointed to the promise, which depended on the barrier being taken down(in Christ) so that the Gentiles could receive it. Jesus was made Lord and exalted to the right hand and received the promised Holy Spirit and “poured out this which you do now both see and hear”

Paul clearly says the Holy Spirit is the “pledge of the inheritance guaranteeing the purchased possession” and refers to us as those who have the “firstfruits of the Spirit”

He then explains that the purchased possession becomes manifest at the resurrection of our bodies. Our bodies have not yet been resurrected- an event the whole creation is groaning for which will occur in the future and dependss upon the second coming, “Whom the heavens must receive until the period of the restoration of all things spoken by the mouth of all the holy propherts since ancient times.”- that revelation of the children of God that will set creation free from futility into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Paul also explicitly speaks of our salvation by grace through faith in view of our being the recipients of the display of God’s favor toward us “in the ages to come” and our being “created in Christ Jesus for works prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them”.

Full preterists are missing the whole back end of God’s plan as far as I can see, 'an administration suitable to the fulness of times, the gathering of all things into one in Christ", and the “period of the restoration of all things” which will begin when Jesus descends from the heavenly realms with the first resurrection saints to set the whole creation free from bondage to chaos- it has at least two ages(plural) to go after this one. The next age wil begin with the “revelation of the sons of God” because in this age He is “bringing many sons unto glory” so Paul says, "For I consider the sufferings** of this present time **to be inconsequential measured against the “glory that is to be revealed in us”(in the period of the restoration of all things).

That glory is yet to come and in this age only the first fruits of it are manifest.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and** seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come(period of the restoration of all things) He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.** 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The problem I see is not in the scriptures full preterists hav… it is in the scriptures they hve no place for.

[maintenanceman]

I would disagree that the Bible is the story of Israel, except perhaps according to a perspective limited to the last to ages, certainly at least in the national context.

If we look at the bible as the story of how God has reconciled himself to his creation, than we could say that the bible is about Israel, for through Israel God chose to do his redeeming work. The messiah was of the family of David as prophesied, and we are told in romans that through Abrahams seed (Christ), not seeds are the heirs of the promise. All nations will be blessed through Israel. So yes I would say the whole bible is about Israel.

He then explains that the purchased possession becomes manifest at the resurrection of our bodies. Our bodies have not yet been resurrected- an event the whole creation is groaning for which will occur in the future and dependss upon the second coming, “Whom the heavens must receive until the period of the restoration of all things spoken by the mouth of all the holy propherts since ancient times.”- that revelation of the children of God that will set creation free from futility into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
2Co 5:15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
2Co 5:16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
2Co 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Also
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
Col 1:19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
Col 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Col 1:21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
Col 1:22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach–

So we see that reconciliation has taken place through Christ, and that God has truly sent a redeemer. It has happened . Finished. If you notice Paul said old things have passed away and new have come. He says, “be reconciled to God”, not in the context that reconciliation is contingent on some action, but as a brother wanting them to realize what has happened. They are now reconciled and able to be presented as Holy and Blameless. Halleluiah!

I think the preterist view is one of fulfillment, and the full preterist simply thinks all is past and all that is spoken, in the context of Israel, and thus creation, is fulfilled. And I do believe when the sons and daughters realize that reconciliation has truly taken place (already past/done) that we will have a more 'on earth as it is in heaven.

Thanks,

Chad

[Eaglesway]

Yes it is all fulfilled in the seed, like a corn of wheat in the earth. It is done, but the patient husbandman waits patiently for the early and the latter rains, first the shoot, then the stalk, then the full headed fruit

Reconciliation has taken place. Restoration has not. Resurrection has not.

For as in Adam all died. So also in Christ shall all be made alive, but each in his own order.

I understand the finished work. It was all accomplished at the cross. It didnt need Jerusalem to fall to be complete. That was just order. The fulfilled work manifesting through time. That work has a few stages to go in my opinion, but I think I have said enough.

Rather than discuss doctrine I’d rather sit down with you and play guitar and sing a few songs to the glory of God

youtu.be/JuXug3ySIhM

[LLC]

According to Exodus 4:22, “Israel is my son, My firstborn.” From what I understand, the promise is this: Genesis 1 :26 "Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” Genesis 1:28 "Then God blessed them, and God said to them; “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it.” I’m not sure when this changed to the promise being- we shall all be resurrected in the afterlife and be made immortal.

[maintenanceman]

Yes it is all fulfilled in the seed, like a corn of wheat in the earth. It is done, but the patient husbandman waits patiently for the early and the latter rains, first the shoot, then the stalk, then the full headed fruit

Reconciliation has taken place. Restoration has not. Resurrection has not.

For as in Adam all died. So also in Christ shall all be made alive, but each in his own order.

I understand the finished work. It was all accomplished at the cross. It didnt need Jerusalem to fall to be complete. That was just order. The fulfilled work manifesting through time. That work has a few stages to go in my opinion, but I think I have said enough.

Rather than discuss doctrine I’d rather sit down with you and play guitar and sing a few songs to the glory of God

youtu.be/JuXug3ySIhM

Never, ever discuss doctrine with a loaded guitar in your hands. Seriously, I never pass up a chance to play my guitar for Christ.

Eaglesway, I’ve always appreciated your views! I learn more from people who disagree with me that those that agree!

Thanks,

Chad