Hey ATR, I’ve been on the same wavelengths as you regarding viewpoints. I’m really trying to test scripture and look for full biblical Truth. Your thoughts on Isaiah 45:7 is exactly what I’ve been exploring and find that it makes a lot more sense. I think the word ‘kolasis’ encapsulates the concept well, stating that God breaks down people, in order to build up greater over time. On another note, I would disagree with your views on judgement/second death. If you have heard of Full Preterism - that’s something that Im really in the process of trying to test (might take a couple years though…). If you have gone into it, I’d like your thoughts, but if not then I would highly recommend since I believe it holds better to Truth and Gods Love. Thoughts?
Hey Mik, sorry Im just now getting back to you! Good to see Im not the only one in the crazy camp!
I will say this as a preface; Im no greek or hebrew scholar, Im not as well read in many theologies, and I cant speak for every preterist Im sure. I still have a hard time explaining what I believe sometimes in a concise manner, my long original post can attest to that haha. But to me,in my opinion, there is a lot in revelation that has not yet unfolded. I take the word death as literal , though I know some preterists take it figuratively, but even if death is figurative for spiritual death it has hardly been abolished and thus is that death is still reigning, there is still suffering and tears on faces, all have not yet come to Christ and all has not been reconciled to God, and there is still much evil in this world. Im willing to be corrected by any preterist and welcome their thoughts,beliefs and explainations on this post! im assuming this to them is more of a process working towards that goal possibly. I may have misunderstood some of the ones Ive talked too on here and outside the forum.
Simply put,to me, if this is the kingdom, I want my money back haha (a little dumb humor there, im not making fun of anyones personal beliefs). I think the book of revelation is hard, because there is admittedly a lot of symbolism which can be interpreted many different ways. But my rule of thumb has always been literal if possible, following a sound translation of course, and even when it is figurative it must still be grounded in literalism. For instance in the figurative statement “this bread is my body” both bread and body must be defined as its literal definition for the metaphoric comparison to be made and understood well.
I am always up to learning more, even if I dont agree, and being corrected if I misrepresent anything. But to me I dont believe in preterism and think tribulation is still to come. That revelations is future, possibly soon, and is more of a wake up call to the world than just retributive anger.
At the end of the day, I have my convictions. But I do not call myself a teacher by any means. So my opinion is just that. And I know I could be wrong. But this I do know, no matter whether I put the puzzle pieces together correctly or not I do know what the picture of the puzzle ends up as. And that is the salvation of all, God reconciling, vivifying, and justifying/forgiving all of His creation, and creation being back in harmony and peace and in perfected bliss and love.
Hey, thanks for the reply. I love these types of in depth conversations - always nice finding people who are also crazy lol. The only reason I go into the Greek and Hebrew is because I think that you get a more direct and whole view of the idea that just isn’t really explored in the English versions of the bible. Going on that idea, with the Greek - the term “death” is quite interesting and I think very different than our usual western view. Apparently, in greek death means ‘separation,’ specifically of body separating from soul. ie. the body apart from the soul is dead. If this is the case I think that it relates well saying that pre 70ad/ or maybe 33ad, everyone was dead due to the point that their soul was in hades/sheol and their body separate. Yet, after 70ad/or 33ad - due to Jesus’ death, there was no longer this death (separation) of body and soul. All of this is quite heavy theory for me right now - but I do think that it is on the right track (More reading has to be done however).
On the kingdom, I would say that the one thing that the Hebrew people wanted back then (and worked towards) was fellowship with God. An actual relationship, something that they had to get through the use of the high priest once a year through atonement. That is definitely something that Christians in general would say that we have - fellowship and a relationship with God now in this age. I think that this point is quite central to the whole kingdom argument being here already. Im sure we are both on the same page when I say this - that this is pretty much trying to test scripture, and a lot of it is theory and could very well be wrong. Still like looking into this and keen to hear any theories you have with all of it!
Definitely! Its always nice, in this day and age, where two people can come together with different opinions and ideas and speak to each other in civility! Especially in the context of two people earnestly wanting and seeking truth! Some truths we may never know until the consummation and maybe even then still not know the full mystery of God!
Admittedly I know very little of preterism, what little I know is that it is the general theory is that revalations was the destruction of 70 ad. And to me it just leaves a lot of questions. And I wouldnt know where to put certain verses that, in my opinion, go farther in the eonian timeline such as the reconciliation of all things which I always saw as something immediately after revelations and revelations being the process that achieved that end.
I would gladly look into any resources you have, whether I end up agreeing or not,that way maybe I can at least come to a better understanding to their theory and the answers they have pertaining to anything I may not understand.
Also speaking of the isaiah 45:7 passage about God creating good and evil I find the very cross of Christ perplexing for this very notion. One of the greatest evils being the cross, purposed by God, brought about the greatest and most good achievement of His will. From our point of view as bad and rightfully so, was saw from Gods bird eye view and was used to create something overwhelmingly good!
Ill probably be off for the night but look foreward to any material you may have delving into the topic!
Goodnight and God bless friend.
G’day mik… you might find some of these threads below of interest; there are others too. All posts under my moniker deal with the fulfilled eschatology perspective…
Hey ATR and qas, thanks for the reply’s. Admittedly, I haven’t read any books on the topic - however I do read a lot of articles online. I feel as though it is just more convenient and you can get multiple viewpoints in a short amount of time. Even if you don’t agree with something, I think it adds to your overall formulation of views. I like sites such as bereanbiblechurch, anewdaydawning, and planetpreterist to name a few. I try and stay away from the sites that are all flashy and with big font since it seems as though they are trying to really push their view and are usually very biased. Would also really recommend that any time you search up a verse or topic, add ‘preterism’ at the end (In my opinion it helps a good amount). I would also add that looking into the fulfilment of the 7 Jewish Feasts is really convincing. Noting that the term ‘Holy Convocations’ (ie. the jewish feasts and laws) in the Greek means “Dress Rehearsal,” which is quite interesting since it was the Hebrews who went through those feasts every year. Its as if it was a practice for that people-group for a future big event, and not for you or I (just something interesting that I read and gets me pretty curious about Full Preterism). Davo, I will for sure read those articles you sent - from the articles Ive read on here so far I can see you are a Full Preterist. So it will be great to get your views over time!
Im genuinely interested. My question would be where does vivification/immortality fit into the picture? Specifically where Paul speaks of being made from mortal to immortal? Is this generation,post revelation, moving towards this? or do you interpret it differently than its literal meaning?
Is life beyond literal death and the corruption of sin for all creation still the goal?
Thats great to hear! Quite honestly I haven’t formed a full opinion on that yet. I have heard many times that Preterist’s take that as life in the Spirit. I know that some would say that’s a cop out if you just spiritualise parts of scripture - but I think that the Kingdom of God can be experienced now in this life in that spiritual sense. If you are talking about I Cor. 15:50-52 then that could relate to spirits in hades being changed in the soul and moving to heaven. Again, really not sure - but this site may help https://revelationrevolution.org/1-corinthians-15-50-54-a-preterist-commentary/
I feel like God is always working in life for some very good reasons. So, I could definitely see that sin would still be present. If you look at Revelation 21:8 and then 22:15, its as if the adulterers, sorcerers etc. are thrown into destruction (Lake of Fire) yet appear after that. I’ve seen that the Lake of Fire is not an actual lake and it is relating to the concept of purification. In Hebrew concepts, the crucible was used as an example of gold being purified through testing over time. The term is ‘touchstone’ and relates to when gold is struck to test the colour - therefore the purity of it. I could see a point to be made that today, in this life, we are tested (ie. the adulteres, murders etc) to be tested again and again and purified. This results in you getting into this spiritual kingdom which does not include any of these ‘bad people.’ Now I would opt for this option instead of an actual Lake of Fire that tortures people - And I think that it ultimately comes down to the type of language that people back in the day would have been familiar with. A good thing to look into is Hebrew idioms and individual word studies - as the people back then would have known %100 what the bible writers were saying. As well, it would be important to note that God is not going to physically destroy the world via Genesis 8:21 and some other verses. That all being said, I think that God does all of this so that people can willingly come to him. These good and bad life events are meant to help grow people over time. I hope this helped a bit - these are all things Im really trying to test and see if Truth is in them.
On that point - I may be wrong when I say that sin would still be present. I didn’t think about Daniel 9:24 and how that fits in. I would say that evil would still be present though. Adds a fair bit of complication, so there is more to look into.
Also God is called a “consuming fire” so perhaps the LOF is God?
I believe that is also, the Eastern Orthodox / Eastern Catholic viewpoint - mine also.
Steve, what do you think happens in the LOF? Do you think people are physically tormented?
My understanding is… John’s ‘lake of fire’ and Jesus’ ‘Gehenna’ are both one and the same and speak of and to the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem, and as such have zip, zero and zilch to do with post-mortem realities. Both speak of destructive realities and THAT is exactly what came on the end of the old covenant age. Thus the ‘lake of fire’ speaks of physical annihilation, i.e., physical death, as torturous as it was in those ‘last days’ — no more no less.
As you can see from Davo the Preterist position. I think it is postmortem and no, God doesn’t torture but there is some kind of purification process. My favorite bible verse is Rev 22.17 when the Spirit and the Bride invite whosoever to drink from the water of life. It appears to me the only people that at that point would benefit from this invitation are people still in the LOF.
Thank you, Steve. It had never occurred to me that this invitation was directed to those in hell.
Sure Paidion, I have certainly learned a lot over the years reading your posts including our multi-year thread with Homer back in the day!
Well actually, Steve no. What I shared was the pantelist position. Most prêterists are infernalists and simply go with the evangelical assumption that views the ‘lake of fire’ as simply being the Hell MKII version that superseded ‘hades’ aka Hell MKI — same house different street; and thus like you, assume it to be postmortem.
Brad Jersack wrote a great book based on that verse called “Her Gates Will Never Be Shut”. I highly recommend it.