Facts to be Considered by All Full Preterists

[Paidion]

Of course I’m not. Mounce, however, wouldn’t raise a cavalier hand of dismissal in trumpeting his own Greek prowess as a means of deflecting and NOT dealing with an issue raised.

So now you’re accusing me of “trumpeting” my own Greek prowess; are we supposed to disregard the fact that you asked me for my qualifications?

You’re unbelievable! Total red herring! As you and everybody else reading along fully knows… my statement above was specific to the verse under discussion, i.e., Col 1:20.

You’re unbelievable! Total falsehood! You wrote:

NOWHERE I repeat NOWHERE does “the infinitive” render “a process” as you wrongly claim.

Clearly that’s a MUCH broader scope than specifically Colossians 1:20

I showed you from Mounce that SOMEWHERE the infinitive WAS used to describe a process. As I suspected, you are unwiling to admit you were wrong. Have you EVER admitted you were wrong? Or do you claim never to have BEEN wrong?

I don’t doubt that your attack mode which is your only defense against those who have exposed your errors has been well demonstrated to the other readers of this thread. But unlike me, they are too courteous to say anything.

[davo]

Fortunately EVERYTHING is up the page and IN CONTEXT for all to see…

Of course I’m not. Mounce, however, wouldn’t raise a cavalier hand of dismissal in trumpeting his own Greek prowess as a means of deflecting and NOT dealing with an issue raised.

So now you’re accusing me of “trumpeting” my own Greek prowess; are we supposed to disregard the fact that you asked me for my qualifications?

I did not disregard your stated qualifications at all… in fact I thanked you for them. NO, your trumpeting was this stretch below where you sought to dodge the issue of the infinitive that YOU yourself raised in a vain attempt to disprove the point I’d made relative to Col 1:19-20 — this is what you actually said…

I think my study of Hellenistic Greek formally for several years, and informally for over twenty, qualifies me to understand the infinitive mode.

I simply demonstrated you were wrong on this matter.

You’re unbelievable! Total red herring! As you and everybody else reading along fully knows… my statement above was specific to the verse under discussion, i.e., Col 1:20.

You’re unbelievable! Total falsehood! You wrote:

NOWHERE I repeat NOWHERE does “the infinitive” render “a process” as you wrongly claim.

Clearly that’s a MUCH broader scope than specifically Colossians 1:20

Some honesty here would really be appreciated Paidion. Let me again quote you AND THEN my response showing the context from post 404 (post 391)… where it is clear both our statements were tied and directly related to Col 1:19-20…

Let’s look at this verse realistically. “For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell…” There is an infinitive here. “It pleased the Father that all the fullness to dwell in Him.” What else pleased the Father? “To reconcile all things to Himself by Him.”—another infinitive. This does NOT imply that the Father has already reconciled all things to Himself, but rather that it pleased Him to bring this about through Christ. This is a process that has already begun, and will some day be completed.

Well realistically… with all due respect to whoever instructed you in NT Greek, they would be turning in their grave at this blatant false claim regarding “the infinitive” relative to Col 1:19-20. NOWHERE I repeat NOWHERE does “the infinitive” render “a process” as you wrongly claim. The infinitive is results orientated and speaks to PURPOSE and not process, i.e., definitive action. Example:

Mt 20:19 and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again.”

As is CLEARLY seen… YOU yourself quoted Col 1:19-20 raising the infinitive as an apparent conquering issue to which I directly responded showing your blatant error. So my… “NOWHERE I repeat NOWHERE does “the infinitive” render “a process” as you wrongly claim” statement was pertinent and specific TO Col 1:19-20 AND you know it!

I showed you from Mounce that SOMEWHERE the infinitive WAS used to describe a process. As I suspected, you are unwiling to admit you were wrong.

You showed me nothing I hadn’t ALREADY myself plainly stated… read AGAIN the second last paragraph of post 404.

Have you EVER admitted you were wrong?

Yep of course I have… you however don’t afford me much opportunity.

I don’t doubt that your attack mode which is your only defense against those who have exposed your errors has been well demonstrated to the other readers of this thread.

You are just being sore and silly. It seems whenever I call you on something you inevitably turn it around to being a personal attack. Funny how you can be just as robust and yet you don’t hear me bleating about it.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

When I’m trying to follow, the scholarly dialogue - between Davo and Paidion…I’m reminded of the poem When I Heard the Learned Astronomer

When I heard the learn’d astronomer,
When the proofs, the figures, were ranged in columns before me,
When I was shown the charts and diagrams, to add, divide,
and measure them,
When I sitting heard the astronomer where he lectured with
much applause in the lecture-room,
How soon unaccountable I became tired and sick,
Till rising and gliding out I wander’d off by myself,
In the mystical moist night-air, and from time to time,
Look’d up in perfect silence at the stars.

I like simplicity. While the scholars’ debate on what the book of Revelations REALLY means…I look at the Zombie Apocalypse (past or future)…as the most probable, end-times tribulation scenario.

“The next best thing to being clever is being able to quote someone who is.”-- Mary Pettibone Poole

[Paidion]

Greetings Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ. May the enabling grace of God be with us all!

I indicated that I would present a passage that more clearly indicates reconciliation as a process. Let’s first examine the following two verses. If I remember correctly, someone referred to these verses earlier in the thread:

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation. (2 Cor 5:18 ESV)

At first blush, that sounds a lot as if the reconciliation is a completed fact, doesn’t it? But it ain’t necessarily so! What is the parsing of the word “καταλλαξαντος” (katallaxantos), the word that it translated as “reconciled” above? It is an aorist active participle. Let’s see what William Mounce wrote about participles:

The present participle describes a continuous action and is formed from the present stem of the verb.
The aorist participle describes an action without commenting on the nature of the action (undefined) and is formed from the aorist stem of a verb
The perfect participle describes a completed action with present effects, and is formed from the perfect stem of a verb. (William D. Mounce "Basics of Biblical Greek,
Ch 26, Sec 26.8)

If it were only a present participle, verse 18 would support those like myself who hold that the reconciliation is a process.

If it were only a perfect participle, verse 18 would support those who hold the reconciliation to be a past event.

However, being an aorist participle it does not in itself, support either position.

BUT, the very next verse begins with that little Greek word “ως.” That word is translated as “that is” by the EMTV, the ESV, and the NRSV. Those two little words “That is” indicates that what follows is a restatement of that in verse 18, and so to be consistent, we ought to translate the word in verse 17 also as “was reconciling” as a process.

In verse 18, the Greek word is “καταλλασσων,” the present active participle, which, according to Mounce quoted above, “describes a continuous action.” The verb is also preceded by “ην” (was)—thus "was reconciling (continuous action).

So verse 18 doesn’t contradict verse 17, but further explains it. Since the word in verse 17 is an aorist, we would not know the time aspect, if it were not for verse 18.

However, if I am correct, then the question arises as why virtually all translators render the word in verse 17 as “reconciled,” a past action. My guess is that they associate the aorist with past action since the aorist was often used in writing of past events.

[davo]

At first blush, that sounds a lot as if the reconciliation is a completed fact, doesn’t it? But it ain’t necessarily so!

Brings to mind this song likewise of others who doubt the plain text.

My guess is that they associate the aorist with past action since the aorist was often used in writing of past events.

That’s pretty much how the aorist works, as the example plastered in the rear of my lexicon reads… ‘Aorist — action as occurring — at one point in time, past indefinite, e.g., Jeff studied the bible.’

So the ONLY possible “process” if you will was that of God’s working in Christ in having established said reconciliation, i.e., it was ALL God and none of us; or as I’ve mentioned previously… the ONLY thing man contributed was the sin making it necessary.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

so!

Brings to mind this song likewise of others who doubt the plain text.

A better song for me (NOT being a Greek scholar) - is this one. Out of curiosity, Davo - are you a Greek scholar like Paidion? If so, do you mind sharing - a bit of background?

“Trust yourself. You know more than you think you do.”-- Dr. Benjamin Spock

[davo]

Out of curiosity, Davo - are you a Greek scholar like Paidion? If so, do you mind sharing - a bit of background?

No I’m not… I know my limits. I have no formal training as such though some years of informal studies.

[Paidion]

The following quote is from a site where Greek lessons are given:

Remember that Greek tenses indicate not only time of action, but more especially kind of action. The aorist tense is a secondary tense, and accordingly, in the indicative mood it indicates past action. In other moods, it does not indicate absolute time, and often does not even indicate relative time.

[maintenanceman]

Randy, are you a Greek scholar?