The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Fascinating videos, particularly the Bible's Ages one!

Theology Eschatology
#1

The last one is easily the most thought provoking thing I’ve come across all year! It’s going to take a lot of processing… It seems to be a form of optimistic Postmillennialism (not dispensationalism!), with an eye on Hebrew cosmology, which clearly implies universalism! Fascinating, just fascinating. **Disclaimer: some bit sound crazy but that might be because it’s new & there are imitations of it that are dodgy (like Pluralism is of EU). **Having said that, it might be crazy too, don’t know yet… Co-author of Victorious Eschatology - which also looks interesting.


Running time: 5:15


Running time: 8:51


Length: 6:12


Length: 18:47


Length: 1:12:25

#2

Watched the first two video’s so far. Really liking what I’m hearing from him. His church is in Canada. Is he Irish?

#3

Scottish accent.
On the first video he says he does not want to be dogmatic but then on subsequent video’s he must be one of the most dogmatic speakers I’ve heard.
I listened to the last video and it was definitely worth the time. He is the fourth speaker (eg Dr Stephen Jones) I have heard applying the signs of the zodiac to the message from God.

#4

Thank you for posting these videos. By the way, I thought the accent was Irish as well. I recall students at Bible school who were from Ireland that spoke English much the same. But then, some Scotch people speak that way also.

I was most impressed by video 3—Personal Paradigms. I think the three of them really had a handle on that.

A paradigm shift is not necessarily revolutionary. In my case it was a gradual development over decades, in which I studied the New Testament and early Christian writings, particularly those prior to the year 300. Now my understanding is so different from the Calvinistic, evangelical fundamentalist paradigm which I clung to in my teen-age years and early twenties, that it is called “heretical” and “not believing the Bible” by most of my siblings, as well as my mother (while she was yet alive—she lived to be 101).

I fully understand clinging tenaciously to one’s paradigm. I did the same in my early years. Both of my brothers who are older than I, have always done so. When I suggested to the younger one (who is now nearly 85) that one should keep an open mind, he replied, “Once you know that two plus two equals four, there’s no use keeping an open mind about it. No one can ever convince you that the sum is five.”

#5

Really enjoyed the last one, Alex, which at your recommendation I watched first. Better not watch any more just now, but thanks! Fascinating, as you said. :smiley:

#6

I’m tempted to watch them, but loud alarm bells are sounding at the mention of zodiac signs!! I’ve checked out the ‘astrology’ stuff in the past, and if I remember rightly it’s only focused on within Kabbalah which seems very dodgy to me (Kabbalah that is). :confused:

#7

Catherine, the way I understood him, he’s only talking about the “zodiac” with reference to what an “age” is – that is, what dates it is. It’s not what you would expect from someone talking about the zodiac – or not what I would expect at any rate.

#8

Hmm, I’ll have a quick look to verify what he’s doing. Thanks Cindy… :wink:

#9

Hi Catherine
I’ve been studying Trench’s work since Alex posted the thread and I’m very unhappy with his dismissive approach and his language regarding any Christians who may hold differing views (particularly with regard to his eschatology).
But I have an open mind with regard to the zodiac. As far as I am aware, the only OT texts cited in support of the zodiac are these two:

  1. Genesis 1:14 – Then God said, “Let lights appear in the sky to separate the day from the night. Let them serve as signs, and mark the seasons, days, and years”.
    The most important word being ‘signs’, which, to me in context, may only refer to time keeping (and probably have nothing to do with constellations) but Trench says:
  1. Psalm 19:1-4 – The heavens proclaim the glory of God. The skies display his craftsmanship. Day after day they continue to speak; night after night they make him known. They speak without a sound or word; their voice is never heard. Yet their message has gone throughout the earth, and their words to all the world.
    The question here is whether the Psalmist is simply saying that they display God’s craftsmanship and THAT is the message, but Trench says:

Now he MAY be right. I admit that there are a number of ‘coincidences’ (or God-instances) and I am intrigued with this possibility.
e.g. the age of the ram (Jewish sacrifice), the age of the fish (coming of Jesus til now), the age of the male water carrier (predicted by Jesus where the man carrying a pitcher of water showed the way to the outpouring of the water of the Holy Spirit in the Upper Room which is a foretaste of the Age of Aquarius (cue music)).
If you wish to get straight to the crux of it read part4 here:
martintrench.com/the-ancient-bib … es-part-4/
I’d love to know what you make of it.

#10

Hi Pilgrim :smiley: I was just going to post a reply and your reply popped up in the nick of time. :wink: I’ve just had a ‘quick look’ by which I mean I’ve just watched the whole of the ‘ages one’ which is over an hour long. :laughing: It was so bloomin interesting that I had to watch all of it. :laughing: I have much to say but it’s past my bed time and so I shall come back to reply fully tomorrow. I’ll just quickly mention something he says towards the end that was like an answer to prayer about something that my daughter and I had been discussing the last few days: why do you not see healings today? When Martin mentions that we are only having a ‘taste of the age to come’, that seemed to make sense of our puzzlement over the lack of the Holy Spirit moving in the earth, or rather amongst believers. (I’m sure He does move in some places, but I’ve never seen a healing). Most of what he says makes much sense and feels like missing jigsaw puzzle bits are slotting into place. More tomorrow… :wink:

#11

Yes! That does address quite a conundrum. Some churches talk of a “Now and not-yet” theology of the Kingdom (eg Vineyard churches).
My biggest problem was his preterist perspective. It made me re-read Matt 23,24,25 Luke 21 very carefully and I just don’t get how someone can believe that those prophecies are all past events but I don’t think his preterist view is necessary to agree with a lot of what he is saying. I’m looking forward to what you make of the zodiac idea. In the VERY little research I’ve done, I’m not sure if it first appeared in medieval Christendom rather than any earlier but I’d be delighted if someone could dispel my ignorance on that point.

#12

Edit: just saw Catherine and pilgrim’s last responses, and haven’t read them yet.

So I watched the whole zodiac video. I have very mixed feelings about it. He says that the zodiac is very engrained in the way the ancients think. What he says for the most part makes a lot of sense. He mentioned how authors from all sorts of theological camps have been writing about this. For example: “The Real Medium of the Zodiac” by D James Kennedy. He clearly identifies himself as believing in Postmillenialism. Though I am no expert in end times stuff, I’m a bit skeptical of their being this golden age, where the gospel reigns supreme over the earth for a period of time --though–I could imagine this happening if Christian Universalism became the dominant view. I’ve tended towards an Amillenial perspective myself.

He went on, during the Q&A period, when asked about it, to go on quite a rant against Ken Ham and young earth creationism. I’m no fan of any of that either, but his anger was offputting. He also went on a bit of a rant against the 10 commandments when asked about Sat or Sun as the Sabbath, saying that the 10 commandments doesn’t apply to us because the law has been written on our hearts. I sort of see his point, but was uncomfortable with this as well.

Lastly, on his youtube site he has a video advocating that Joseph of Arimathea took a younger Jesus to Britain, and then Joseph later went back and was the first to bring the gospel there. I’m only about three minutes into the video, but such strong claims raises some alarms for me.

#13

Yes. Thanks for posting that. Me too. It did not show a Spirit of love and contradicted his claim to be non-dogmatic and encourage everyone to come up with their own answers/think for themselves.

That’s interesting. I think I’d already mentioned that his work reminded me of Dr Stephen Jones’ work and this business of the legend of Joseph of Arimathea travelling to England (along with the tales of King Arthur and the round table followed by ‘British Israelites’) is more that Stephen Jones has been teaching for a considerable time:
biblestudystorehouse.com/god … ministries
I quite fancy the idea of great uncle Joseph (Being a tin trader in the Roman Empire) taking a young Jesus to Cornwall whilst collecting tin, and it WOULD explain why there is such a gap (from Jesus age 12 to Jesus age 30) and John the Baptist having difficulty recognising the recently returned Jesus. But like you say, surely there needs to be more evidence than that in order to support the claim?

#14

That would be pretty cool, wouldn’t it? :ugeek:

#15

Finished watching the Joseph of Arimathea video. It was actually very interesting and somewhat plausible. Wonder if [tag]Sobornost[/tag] has any thoughts on the boy Jesus visiting Britain. (It sounds crazy to suggest it, but there is apparently quite a bit of tradition associated with it. Watching the video actually fillled me with awe at the depths of history, and how much I don’t know)

Mods: don’t know if another thread should be made for this?

#16

When I went to bed last night within a few minutes of settling myself down and saying my prayers before I went to sleep (which usually ends in me falling asleep whilst praying :blush: ) I started to feel very disturbed in my spirit. I knew it was to do with this man and the video I’d watched. I prayed and asked God to confirm if I was to stay clear of it all. I thought of his response to the ten commandments and felt very upset about this, as ‘the law is holy’ even though we are no longer ‘under’ some of the regulations of the old covenant. I agree with what he says about the new covenant being on our hearts etc, but I was disturbed by how he responded to ‘the law’.

Anyway, all night I kept waking and being disturbed in my spirit. This has happened to me only once before and it turned out to be correct that time, so I am convinced this was of the Lord. I 'm sure some of the stuff he mentions about how God is working out His plan of redemption through the ages is correct, as is a lot of other stuff that he mentions regarding the partial preterist position. (I lean to that position myself but am not sure). I don’t know if there is anything in what he says about the zodiac but I have been strongly warned not to take this study any further. :frowning:

#17

Hi Caleb  –

I don’t have big thoughts on this one – but I’ll have a bash. The film you are talking about must be the one that was inspired by Gordon Strachan’s Books. As far as I know…

The ‘legend’ of Jesus coming to Britain with Joseph of Arimathea – his merchant ‘uncle’ – is first found in twelfth century manuscripts (very late). However, there is evidence that Christianity may have come to Britain very early. But all of the evidence is only fragments. It seems to me that on this basis Gordon Strachan has sought to prove that it was possible that Jesus could have come to Britain (there were trade routes for the Cornish tin mines and there is evidence that the Phoneticians traded with the Cornish, there had been a Roman presence in Britain since 55 BC etc. – but to prove that it is possible that Jesus could have visited Britain is not the same as proving that it is certain that he came here (and the story is all based around a late legend – legends sometimes contain a grain of truth but an earlier legend, more widely attested, would seem more promising to me).

So I think there are some big intuitive leaps here beyond the evidence. I understand the reason given for Jesus and Joseph’s alleged journey is that he needed to visit the Druids to learn the ancient cosmic wisdom from them regarding the structuring of the universe according to sacred periods and sacred number (as if they were the repository of the wisdom of the Pythagoreans). This view of the Druids as the gentle guardians of a timeless wisdom doesn’t seem to tally with contemporary Roman accounts of them as a fierce and bloodthirsty lot (but perhaps the Romans were out to defame them – I don’t know and again I’m pretty certain the evidence is scant and fragmented). As I understand this there is another conjecture in this theoretical history regarding Jesus’ trade – that ‘carpenter’ actually means ‘builder’. So it is argued Jesus was builder who used the sacred wisdom of number in his constructions – as the builders of the Jerusalem Temple had done and as the Stone Masons of the Middle Ages did. Again all of the evidence seems fragmentary for this so using the methods of a plodding historian I’d say that it is all very hard to make any certain case about without relying uncritically on ‘traditions’. That’s where I’m at with this anyway.

Sorry Caleb – I think that’s the best I can do :slight_smile:

#18

Thanks for that input Catherine. I fully agree with your view of his response to the question and the ten commandments.

#19

With regards to early written mention of Christ in these isles, one can go back as far as St. Gildas (500-570 CE) who wrote of Christ being here during the reign of Tiberius Caesar.
Whether his record is true or not, there is no doubt that Christianity was brought here (by someone) EXTREMELY early and well before the ‘Augustus’ (not of Hippo) which most children were wrongly taught introduced Christianity to these isles.
Hope that is of some little help Caleb.

#20

Sobornost, Pilgrim, thanks for your thoughts on the matter. You both seem a bit more familiar with all this Joseph and Jesus in Britain stuff, than I am, not being a local boy. I did find the movie somewhat restrainted and non-dogmatic in its approach. No real mention of going and studying with the Druids.

Here is the video (it’s actually less than 45 minutes long, the rest is just filler):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps0EKtxnJJk