The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Fascinating videos, particularly the Bible's Ages one!

Alex, although I appreciated some points Martin Trench made, e.g., about the dangers of literalism leading to legalism, and the “ages” pointing to Universal Reconciliation, I also think that he (in the vein of Frank Schaeffer), is guilty of

  1. painting things “fundamentalist” with too broad a brush, and
  2. completely dismissing a few of the valid beliefs within “fundamentalism.”

Some “fundamentalist” beliefs (in no particular order):

•The inerrancy of the Bible
•The Creation account in Genesis, including Adam and Eve
•A global flood sent by God, and Noah’s Ark
•A personal devil, and a literal future antichrist
•The miracles of Christ
•The Virgin Birth of Christ
•The bodily resurrection and physical return of Christ
•The substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross (including Gustaf Aulen’s version of the ransom theory, Christus Victor)
•Dispensational eschatology (e.g., one or more raptures of Christians, a literal millennial reign of Christ in a kingdom on earth)
•Eternal Conscious Torment

My own viewpoints have changed radically in the last five years, so that I have given up some views in this list, and taken on others:

Like Michael Hardin, I now believe God has never been violent–but from the viewpoint of Richard Murray, not René Girard. And I now believe the Scriptures are only part of a progressive revelation, reflective of the human mediators’ growing recognition of God’s goodness (C.S. Cowles). The Scriptures can only point to **THE Word of God: Jesus **(Rev. 19:13).

Unlike Dr. Trench, I still believe catastrophism, as seen in Flood geology, explains sedimentation and the fossil record. And I still reject macro-evolution (inorganic matter to single-celled organism to fish to amphibian to reptile to mammal to man).

And, also unlike Hardin or Trench, I still believe in a personal devil, and a literal antichrist. I think Adolph Hitler was probably a prototype of the antichrist. Hitler brought order out of chaos in Depression-era Germany, and I suspect antichrist will someday do likewise…even with “all power and signs and lying wonders” (2 Thessalonians 2:9).

In college, I took a graduate seminar on Alexander the Great. The professor knew very well the symbolism for Alexander in the Book of Daniel, i.e., the belly and thighs of bronze of Nebuchadnezzar’s statue, the he-goat attacking the ram, the beast like a leopard with four wings. The professor could only dismiss the book as having been written after the fact, since he considered predictive prophecy impossible. I, on the other hand, still thrill at Daniel’s Seventy Weeks!

BTW Regarding the signs of the zodiac showing “The Gospel in the Stars,” Trench should realize that the author of the definitive work on the subject, Joseph A. Seiss (1823-1904), was also the premier scholar for a futurist interpretation of Revelation! But according to Trench, Seiss would have been one of those “crazy” people who push the prophetic scriptures off to the future.

Blessings.

Melchizedek- see Pilgrim’s quote above. That is from here: gatewayalliancechurch.com/meet-our-staff/

I don’t know whether there is cause for concern regarding the degree and doctorate not being ‘verified’??

Gabe, I agree that a formal degree or doctorate does not ‘make’ someone more educated or to be more trusted than anyone else. If you are going to make it public knowledge that you have certain qualifications, it’s not unreasonable for folk to attribute respect for the years of study that someone has undertaken. It does seem unusual that Martin’s qualifications are not verified. :question:

Okay, we’re kind of overlapping here, so I’m going to fold this thread back into Alex’s original one, which has a lot more discussion and information (including recently).

Thanks for that illuminating post Hermano.
It’s a big ask, but if you’ve got time 9or anyone else for that matter) I’d be interested what you make of this:
ezekielwatch.com/portals/69/ … eflood.pdf

I think he’s very thought provoking… I think he gets some things right but other things I’m much less sure about :confused: My gut feeling is he’s seeking truth but might have gone down some dead-ends & jumped to conclusions that are too speculative (& historically questionable according to Sobornost). He’s now posted a bibliography for further investigation: martintrench.com/the-ancient-bib … es-part-9/

As others have noted, it’s not clear where he got his degrees, which is puzzling… so I’ve just asked him on Facebook.

I agree he was too dismissive & not gentle enough for my liking in the Q&A. I think he’s probably right about some of his answers but that we should try to be extra gracious & gentle when telling someone they are wrong (particularly because sometimes they are actually right & we’re in the wrong but don’t know it yet :unamused: ).

Alex- thanks for messaging Martin on facebook. :wink: I am sure he is sincere in his beliefs and love for God. I believe there is something he is ‘into’ that is dodgy and hence the Holy Spirit gave me a gift of discernment. I have been victim to many a wrong teaching and so I always pray about new ideas/teachings I come across. (In the past, I’d just look into something I found interesting without seeking God about it). Interestingly, when I’ve prayed about UR, I’ve not had any kind of ‘warning’. I was feeling very doubtful of UR several months ago. I kept praying to God to confirm to me if UR was true. One morning I was really praying about this and fretting about it. I checked my facebook after praying, and saw a message from my non Christian sister. She’d sent me a link to a song (Mike Scott- ‘what do you want me to do’). I looked it up on youtube but for some reason I clicked on the wrong song by mistake. It was this one: ‘Bring Em all In’

Bring em all in, bring em all in, bring em all in
Bring em all in, bring em all into my heart
Bring em all in, bring em all in, bring em all in
Bring em all in, bring em all into my heart

Bring the little fishes
Bring the sharks
Bring em from the brightness
Bring em from the dark

Bring em from the caverns
Bring em from the heights
Bring em from the shadows
Stand em in the light

Bring em all in, bring em all in, bring em all in
Bring em all in, bring em all into my heart
Bring em all in, bring em all in, bring em all in
Bring em all in, bring em all into my heart

Bring em out of purdah
Bring em out of store
Bring em out of hiding
Lay them at my door

Bring em all in, bring em all in, bring em all in
Bring em all in, bring em all into my heart
Bring em all in, bring em all in, bring em all in
Bring em all in, bring em all into my heart

Bring the unforgiven
Bring the unredeemed
Bring the lost and nameless
Let 'em all be seen

Bring 'em out of exile
Bring 'em out of sleep
Bring 'em to the portal
Lay them at my feet.

Mike Scott - Bring 'Em All In Lyrics | MetroLyrics

You must listen to that song. It’s wonderful (and the other one too). Anyway, it was like God was answering my prayers so directly: ‘I am bringing em ALL in Catherine. Don’t worry about it’. I still have my moments of doubt but I will always hope that God is saving everyone, and to hope for such a thing is surely good. :smiley:

One last point. I assume Martin is at least a hopeful URist. I noticed he’d commented on Robin Parry’s blog. :sunglasses:

What I find that helps me is to research and verify what anybody says, whether they have letters after their name or not. Then you will bypass the step of researching credentials and start at researching the actual information you’re curious about.
If you are a HR person looking to hire someone then yes. It’s a good idea to check credentials.
But for studying theology researching their letters seems to be a sidestep when you should be verifying anything anyway. Unless maybe I’m missing something?

I think you’re right, TurtleJoy. It’s the things said that matter and not so much whether a person has letters behind their name. If they’re misrepresenting themselves AS having this or that “qualification,” though, that misrepresentation might be significant.

Good point . In that case I’d be extra skeptical of anything they’d try to say. Even if their real reason for misrepresentation was simply just to look scholarly, I suppose there our some who do that for more sinister reasons if they are planning to insert lies with the truth.

I’m excited to pass on a message from Martin Trench:

Thanks again Alex for messaging Martin, and thank you Martin for taking the time to respond to our ‘concerns’. :slight_smile:

I would just like to clarify my position: I certainly don’t judge someone by their ‘wordly’ credentials/qualifications.

The Q and A session at the end of the film was unedited I’m assuming and thus its content can be evaluated and thus my resulting reaction to the ‘law’ question and response.

Each person must heed their own conscience and ‘warnings’ that they have come to know as part of their ‘spirit’/consciousness.

I mean no disrespect to Martin and pray God’s blessings on him and his ministry.

For an enlightening treatment of “ages,” please consider this online chapter titled, “The Ages Presented” by scholar Charles Pridgeon; or the entire book, *Is Hell Eternal or Will God’s Plan Fail? *in .pdf from here.

Of possible interest to Martin Trench, because of his own CMA (Christian and Missionary Alliance) association, consider the fascinating Charles Hamilton Pridgeon:

  1. “Is hell eternal, or just a limited time of purification? In his later years, Pridgeon came to believe that there would be a ‘restitution’ of all things. This universalism came to be called Pridgeonism and the Pridgeon doctrine, and the Assemblies of God condemned it as heresy. Pridgeon had been orthodox in his earlier days. He had founded a missionary society that sent missionaries to China, India, and Africa. He encouraged a remarkable outpouring of the Spirit among students at the Pittsburgh Bible Institute, which he had founded. In 1918 he began airing his controversial beliefs about hell.” ~From 1,001 Things You Always Wanted to Know About the Holy Spirit, by Stephen Lang.

  2. "The Evangelization Society (TES) of the Pittsburgh Bible Institute was founded by Charles Hamilton Pridgeon (1863-1932) in 1920. Having been ordained to the Presbyterian ministry, he was influenced by A. B. Simpson and the doctrines of the CMA. Having established the Pittsburgh Bible Institute ca. 1902, he traveled overseas in 1908-1909 to investigate possible sites for ministry. This trip resulted in the dispatching of missionaries to China. In 1920 he founded the Evangelization Society of the Pittsburgh Bible Institute. In the winter of 1920 Pridgeon attended a revival conducted by Aimee Semple McPherson, causing him to urge his students to pray for the baptism in the Holy Spirit. ~From 1936 Handbook of the Christian Movement in China, pp. 127-128.

Blessings!

That was interesting and helpful info. from Martin; thanks for following up on that, Alex. It is of some personal interest to me that he is associated with CMA churches. My father was a Village Missions pastor for many years, and his first (well, second really; but the first I was old enough to remember) church was a CMA church!

I did read the book (online) by Pridgeon early on in my journey to universalism, and found a number of things very helpful and insightful.