The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Finding Heaven

Good thoughts, Nick. Thanks! :smiley:

I think I mainly agree with you, but I believe Iā€™d emphasize the graduality of the process even more. Iā€™ve begun to notice in the last ten or so years how everything on earth and in the heavens seems to exist in some sort of gradient, and I agree with GMac that the natural creation is a book for us, to teach us who God is. It is, insofar as uncorrupted, or so far as we can to some degree perceive what it might BE, uncorrupted, a portrait for us of our Father and of His manner of working in more distinctly spiritual dimensions. Regarding this gradient idea, an example I think of sometimes is our local white-tail and black-tail (mule) deer. I used to think of them as two separate species, but here in the conflux of the two, they arenā€™t really. There are white-tail and various mixes, and then mulies. Thereā€™s a gradient between the two ā€“ no firm dividing line as of pure whitetail --> 1/4:3/4 --> 1/2:1/2 --> 3/4:1/4 --> pure mulie.

To me, thinking of these ā€œstepsā€ of justification, sanctification, glorification is artificial, and not the way we really see things in nature. I think probably these steps are intermingled. Justification (dikaiosune) is a complex word which, as far as I understand, has to do with being together in love and mutual respect with our brothers and sisters and our God or, as Jason has put it, ā€œfair togetherness.ā€ Sanctification (hagiadzo) means to make holy, to purify and consecrate. This is maybe a thing with which we cooperate, but which we canā€™t really do effectively on our own ā€“ maybe like treating a cavity in our own tooth ā€“ (move this way, open your mouth a little more, donā€™t bite the dentist . . . next time donā€™t forget to brush and floss . . . .) I think these two can and typically do grow simultaneously. And as they grow, we also become more glorious ā€“ we display the face of our Lord more and more clearly. It doesnā€™t seem to me that weā€™re meant to see this as three different and progressive stages, of which we must complete the one before we can enter into the next in the series. As we grow in the first ā€“ as we learn to live together in love and kindness and fairness to one another and with our Lord, we naturally and at the same time become more and more unlike the corruption of the world and more separated out unto God, and as these are happening, well, ā€œfrom glory to glory He transforms usā€ ā€“ we begin more and more to shine with the glory that is His life and His beauty shining out from us.

Like you, I do think there has to be a ā€œcrossing overā€ beyond which He becomes all in all and the natural world is renewed, the dead all raised, the corruptible puts on incorruption and all is at last one (as we now see that God is one). I wonder though, whether weā€™ll ever cease to become more like Him. Heā€™s infinite after all, and weā€™re not. So for us to be changed into His image seems to me likely to be a never-ending, ever more glorious quest. How can we ever fully attain to the fulness of Christ? This to me seems a wonderful thing, always to be exploring Him and His glory to higher heights and profounder depths. What a great adventure!

Anyway, this is my idea of ā€œheavenā€ (in part). Just me musing. :slight_smile:

I agree Cindy. I never contemplated how the different phases of faith could mingle.
The idea of it is based off of (in my research) the 3 major feast days of the Hebrew calendar: Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles. Each one speaks of a transition point of the Hebrew journey to the Promised Land. In general, the idea of 3ā€™s in the Bible is quite prevalent. Other examples include the days that Christ was dead (Death on the cross, then rest in the grave on Sabbath, and then resurrection) or when Jesus was tempted in the desert. The temptations in the desert represent the 3 levels of faith which I explain below.
The first temptation of stone being turned into bread Jesus did not do which he responds by saying that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Looking back at the Israelites, they were weak in faith because they did not trust God to feed and protect them yet they had enough faith to trust that God would take them out of Egypt by putting blood on the doorpost. The Israelites tempted God to directly profit them. Thus the first level of faith is a basic belief/trust in God. However, people at this level of faith ask too much of God (much like kids asking for parents to give them everything they want.) If God provided what the Israelites or any people of low level of faith what they want, then they become spoiled and do not mature. They must learn that Godā€™s word is exceedingly more profitable than the worldā€™s riches. That is what I mean by a faith that has only reached a level of justification. My opinion: Sometimes, I think sincere people who settle for the prosperity gospel are at this level of faith.
The next level of temptation is when Jesus is presented all the kingdoms of this earth and was told to bow down to Satan if He wanted the power. Jesus responds by basically reciting the first commandment. The problem is that Satan had ā€œusurpedā€ authority over earth without really owning it because he got Adam to declare allegiance to him through sin. Satan was offering the easy way out of ruling the earth so Jesus wouldnā€™t have to die on the cross. Jesus overcame by recognizing and obeying the sovereignty of God. The Israelites faced a similar trial. After they were told they would have to wait 40 years to go the Promised Land because of sin. Some attempted to rebel and lead the Israelites into battle thinking God was on their side and they lost. (Numbers 14:39-45) The question for believers today is do we try to receive Godā€™s promises before we mature or do we wait for signs from God? This is a rather long phase of faith that requires disciplining Godā€™s children until they began to recognize His wisdom. Sanctification is a way of ā€œwisingā€ us up by learning by trial and error that our ways of doing things will ultimately lead us down to a ā€œwideā€ road of destruction. My opinion: People who are blinded by denominational beliefs and/or donā€™t read the Bible and pursue God outside of their ā€˜mental wallsā€™ will likely never really grasp this level of faith quite well even though they believe in God. I learned this from my own experience.
The next temptation is when Jesus is told to commit suicide and let God save him from the attempt while thousands of eyes down below in the temple are watching. Jesus responds by saying ā€œdonā€™t test God.ā€ Satanā€™s doctrine was to use scripture out of context (Psalms 91) which talks about how angels will prevent ā€˜your foot from striking a stoneā€™. It comes down to using Godā€™ Word in vain. But how can one know if they are taking His words in vain? If they know the ā€œmind of Godā€ or His intent/will they will not misuse His words. The only Israelites to know God well enough to know that He would protect them was Caleb and Joshua. So in a sense, they knew the ā€œmind of Godā€. Thus, the faith of glorified believers is so powerful as to bring them to a position of Sonship with God because they do His will with joy and understanding like angels. This level of faith brings glorification. Those at this level of faith are human representatives of Heaven. They truly do live as princes and princesses in the Kingdom of God.
Cindy, you are right when you say that characteristics of justification, sanctification, and glorification mingle in our relationship with Jesus. The Israelites, at times, seemed to fall way backwards in their faith or sometimes they would obey His laws and they would become victorious in battle. While, we as followers of God, fall and overcome in our faith, we must not cower from the straight and narrow path to Heaven.

ā™ŖOnward Christian soldiersā™Ŗ

Hi, Nick

Hey, since you bring up the Temptation in the Wilderness, Iā€™ll bet youā€™d enjoy this sermon by George MacDonald: The Temptation in the Wilderness. Or hereā€™s an audio version:

I always enjoy hearing new perspectives, and this one has some things I hadnā€™t thought of or heard before.

Enjoy! :smiley:

The bible and any intelligent person will know that knowledge is key to everything. That is why it was accentuated so strongly in genesis.

Good and evil apply to almost everything and brings the knowledge of almost everything.

"Love is about relationship - its about responding to the needs of the other. "

You must then have to have knowledge of those needs. Right?

Can you love without that knowledge? No you cannot.

Regards
DL

The thing I like about Gnosticism is that it teaches us to have self-knowledge.

What do you see as Jesus preaching?
For man to free himself from the control systems in place, ā€” or was he telling us to follow what was in place and be either slaves to God or to sin?
I suggest that the churches and bible teach that we are to be slaves to God or to sin. Jesus taught that we should seek the highest form of freedom
that we can attain and that God is to serve us and not us serve him.

Try this.

youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ā€¦ r_embedded

Who is your God?

Regards
DL

That is key and goes with self respect. Know thyself. The good, the bad and the ugly.

You will find that you are not that bad.

If you have a preferred myth or religion then internalizing it will help. It is not required though.

Meditation works for some and did for me.

youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

Regards
DL

Hey Gnostic Bishop,

Yep. One of the things that has also helped me in self-knowledge is writing down my entire life story and reading it to a trusted friend.

Nice.

I can be more honest with myself than others though even when trying to be as honest as possible.

Regards
DL

Moderation note:

The discussion here has drifted far from Kateā€™s OP. Gnostic Bishop has started at least 3 threads for discussion of his views, so please take the discussion to one of those, or start a new one if appropriate.

Kate summarized her OP as:

Please keep any further posts on topic.

Thanks,
Sonia