The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Finding Heaven

Christian Universalists often argue that the idea of hell came much later after years of Orthodox Judaism, as there is little to no mention of punishment after death in the Old Testament. They claim that perhaps the idea of hell came from pagan Grecian thought or even Zoroastrianism.

So here’s my question–

If we claim evidence for the non-existence of eternal hell based on its lack of mention in the Old Testament, could we not say the same about heaven? :confused: How can Christian universalists still maintain hope in eternal life when this idea wasn’t mentioned in the Old Testament either? Could Jesus have been speaking as figuratively and as situationally about “eternal life” as he was about “everlasting punishment?” In short, for the universalist, is Heaven for real?

Blessings and goodnight (I should have gone to bed ages ago-- Now is not the time for theological musings, but here I am. :wink: )

Kate

I think a big problem for modern Christianity (and one that has been the case for some time in the West at least) has been at least in practice and to all intents and purposes a confusion and collapse in meaning of terms, where things have become flattened out and in our language and the landscape of meaning behind it case us in the West to often hear two distinct and different terms for different ideas, concepts and categories as one thing where the meaning of one (or even both of the terms) is lost.

Add this to a common practice in much of Christianity to adopt an essentially Deistic and Epicurean view of reality with some Christianized modifications and things get even worse, so God becomes something elsewhere with nothing much to do with the world once He got it started apart (depending on whether the Christian identifies themselves as more conservative or liberal etc) from some odd interventions called miracles but otherwise we and creation function by itself while God is largely somewhere else leaving us to things, but sending Jesus so those who respond can go off to be with Him in His heaven after death or the destruction of this material universe but otherwise is uninvolved in everything (perhaps apart from a few more interventions from outside in relation to prayers). The whole language of natural /supernatural and debates in which both assume this view Christian and non-Christian alike as ground for having debate, and all helps to enforce the ‘two-story’ view of reality, heaven is upstairs elsewhere, a non-material reality away from this world, for us to get in contact with if we wish, and hope to go “there” afterwards. It is the real thing and this reality is just a somewhat shabby second-rate place that is just being passed through on the pilgrimage to heaven.

And all of this whatever the official doctrinal confessions leads to this Deistic world-view and what amounts to the old Gnostic view, where the material world is bad or a project gone wrong which God has responded to by destroying it (see such things as the ‘left behind’ series for this idea in full display), in practice God is seen to destroy this material universe of matter, time and space and take us to the timeless, non-material reality out there somewhere. And all of this is so alien to the views of early Christians and most 1st century Judaism. Instead earth, matter, space and time are good things, things He will bring to completion and fulfilment, not abandon as a ‘nice try but lets try plan B’ no He created it in love, is constantly at work in it and will rescue, deliver and bring creation into full completion, being and existence and flood this other with His love and Life. In the monotheistic view yes God is transcendent and Other then creation but He isn’t away or absent, He is in and present in all things at work in everything, all is the work of God who intimately at work in all things and through all things, all things and beings grounded and dependant on His Being and Reality. He is the condition of anything exist all, and all things are functioning and operating through Him and He is present and working in and through all things. There isn’t a natural and supernatural aspect with God making strange interventions in a universe which otherwise goes along on its own steam, no it is all the work and action of God, some of which we describe in scientific terms and language but it remains founded in and is intimately the function of God’s continuous action and work. And in this God acts remarkably and clearly sometimes to us in His work in creation as part of His relation to creation which could be termed miracles, though they not to be seen as 'supernatural" as though they were other then nature or outside or contravened and invaded it, but is part and parcel of the same world and reality and God’s full presence in and at work through it, all to rescue and bring it to completion (and equally the acts and life of Jesus reflect what full humanity should look like and so represents also what we ourselves are meant to increasingly do and bring to this word, and for all our mistakes we able to do more and more to heal and restore then ever before).

And in this view there is no ‘two-story’ universe, there is just a ‘one-story’ universe, no natural/supernatural but just nature, heaven in Jewish and Christian thought isn’t some heaven out there, somewhere else but is part of reality, it is another dimension of the reality we live and exist in, where the reality of God’s purposes is seen (one reason the imagery of apocalyptic is used to relate and express the heavenly perspective on events is to translate what is seen there). It is intimately connected and within all parts of the sphere of reality that is earth, and the two are made for each other, to become one full transfigured reality. The two spheres of reality exist intertwined and within each other, we exist in heaven and move in it just as we do the dimension of earth, both intimately connected and within each other and interacting and intersecting in many areas of life and being, the reality of one aspect becoming evident to the other, what is referred to in Celtic spirituality as ‘thin places’, where the boundaries separating the perception of the dimension of heaven, the Otherworld, become thin. And these intersections can be seen in the Eucharist, in a mysterious manner the dimensions of heaven and earth intersect and meet, as we meet with the Messiah, and they do when we help the poor, the needy and sick, those captive and bound in all manner of ways, in serving them we serve Christ, and actually meet Christ in them, and is a place of dynamic interaction in which the overlapping dimensions of heaven and earth intersect and become open to each other. Christ really is there in the hurting and we really do meet and serve Him directly in them. And the eventual purpose and destiny of both is to become fully united and open to each other, for which the imagery of marriage fits in the NT, and is seen in the image the heavenly Jerusalem descending to the earth to unite with it, showing the two dimensions of God’s creation uniting fully, and becoming open to each other in the full renewal of all things in the new creation that began in Christ and His Resurrection is brought to completion.

And this background was to get into main section, the hope of God’s renewal and rescue of the whole good creation from all that oppresses it and bring it to completion, is fundamental in the developed text representing the calling of Abraham and the election of Israel, to be the one through whom God would complete His purposes and rescue the world bringing blessing to all. They are to become the renewed humanity, the ones through whom the calling of humanity to be the image of God and thereby be fully human is realized and the project began in Genesis is brought back on track, and the world restored and brought to completion through renewed humanity. This idea is continued and develops with more reflection to the images of the renewal of creation seen in Isaiah’s (or Second Isaiah) new heavens and earth, and through the later prophets of His flooding creation with His glory covering the earth as the waters cover the seas and so on. For Israel in exile it became the expectation increasingly that God would return and restore them and renew the world bringing His promises to fulfillment, as He would be faithful to the covenant He made through Abraham. And within this hope the uniquely Jewish view of resurrection appears, in Isaiah and then strongly during the Maccabean persecution in Daniel and 1 and 2 Maccabees and in various 2nd Temple literature, and of course was famously the position of the Pharisee factions over the more conservative Sadducees, and was a revolutionary doctrine that inspired revolt as it denied to conquerors and tyrants the final threat and weapon of death, God would restore and fulfill what He promised and would deliver and be faithful to them, and was why the leadership of the Sadducees opposed it so much, the view was intensely political and revolutionary, we don’t go somewhere else or else just end but God would restore them to this world and restore all that had been lost bringing justice. And it is from a reflection on these three core Jewish concepts of creational monotheism, election and eschatology that it arose, that God was just and faithful and would fulfill His promises and intentions to His good creation and His people, and the meeting of creation and God’s justice lead to resurrection, it is inherent in the meeting of creational monotheism, election and eschatology, of God being faithful to His covenant and rescuing His people and His world. There were various ways the idea was expressed, of who would be resurrected, how and what it would look like, in quite a variety of different pictures. But it was the unified view of a bodily resurrection over against the universal denial of resurrection in the non-Jewish world.

However, the idea though important, was not at the centre of expression and belief but rather only a part of it, but with the early Christians the concept moves to centre of all thought and expression, and there is a unity of conception and expression over the Jewish idea of resurrection then had ever been expressed before, as though they knew something about what it looks like, and understood it through the witness and experience with the Messiah in His resurrection. It is why it has such central place for Paul and why he knows something of what resurrection will look like, he had seen it, and his whole thought on resurrection, creational monotheism, election and eschatology is rethought around Jesus and what happened through His life, death and resurrection, which vindicated Him as Messiah and demonstrated that God had been faithful to His promises and had both returned and restored Israel and brought in His Kingdom and the renewal of creation into the world through Jesus. It had already began but in a way no one expected or was looking for, Israel became Israel in Him, and so also becomes truly Adam, which was the vocation of Israel, and rescues the world, bringing and launching the renewal of the world and all humanity, getting the Genesis project back on track, and in Himself, in His own resurrection body are the dimensions of heaven and earth already united and one in Him, so He is equally at home in both aspects of reality, and it indicates what will be the case not only for all humanity but all creation, which has already begun in Him and will be brought to completion through Him, the one through whom all things came to be in the first place and are held together. In Him we see what God is like, and therefore what a full human looks like, as be like God is to be fully human who are called to be and express God, theosis to be like God is to be fully human, to be fully the person and self in all your uniqueness you were intended to be, and how else would God come and express Himself then as the man Jesus of Nazareth as humanity was made and called to be in His image and likeness (a project which is still ongoing), in Him we see God and what true Israel, true Adam and therefore true human looks like. And we can see this in some of the hesitant language of the Resurrection accounts in the Gospel, as they are trying to describe what they don’t have the language to express, it is Jesus and yet He is different, the know it’s Him but wonder as they encounter the first part of new creation in all reality, the first part of immortal and incorruptible creation ever seen, which will take up and renew all the cosmos.

And this why the NT talks almost exclusively in terms of resurrection and new creation of which Christ is the first fruits and through whom the new age had began, and will bring it to completion when all the enemies that oppose humanity and creation are defeated and the last death is destroyed at His appearing. Only very briefly and with no real details or much interest to we get a few references to the intermediate state in Jesus reference to Paradise and the booths (or houses) in John both of which are ideas of temporary dwellings and places of refreshment on a journey to Paul’s being with Christ which is far better and the souls under the altar in Revelation, and that is it. And this is founded in the idea of continuity between ourselves as we are now to how we shall be in the future, resurrection implies continuity, even more so since it has already began and is in Christ, and we continue and grow in union with Him until at His appearing we are delivered and raised fully into His Life, so the nature is mysterious, but as He lives we continue as we await the resurrection and fulfillment of our hope, when mortal shall put on immortality, corruption incorruption knowing now death is defeated and shall be destroyed then.

And for this reason I always speak of the resurrection and the new creation and defeat of death, the phrase going to heaven is not in the NT and I don’t think the phrase can be rescued, it instantly puts the wrong and non-Jewish and non-Christian ideas and concepts in our minds (and feel similarly about the word hell, which does much the same and collapses the two-stage view and leads to practical Deism and Gnosticism). I don’t think the terms can be rehabilitated in our Western understanding of language and take our concerns away from earth and this world and its people, as seen in left behind style Christianity or the view we are just waiting to get out of this bad world and go to heaven. No, God isn’t going to destroy this world, or leave it, He’s going to rescue, complete it and fill it with His love and glory, creation and matter are good things, they are His good idea and He hasn’t changed His mind, rather in Jesus He has sealed it and rescues it, which is something He wants to bring in and anticipate through us, like it or not it is through humanity and the church, by, though and in Christ that the kingdom and new creation manifest and are bought. And of course the union we have and will have with God is shown by Christ supremely in the Resurrection is union that for us involves and is for the whole human being, mind, heart, pyche and body, and the whole creation through Him and us into union with the immortal Life of God, as through the resurrection we are brought out through and beyond death and all its effects, life after life after death.

(never written something this long from my phone, should have waited till I got home so never again lol, it was a nightmare and no doubt full of mistakes :wink: anyway I hope that was s little help, at least in how I view things Kate :slight_smile: )

First of all, whoa, you wrote this theological novel from your phone?! :open_mouth: I am so, so impressed-- Like, seriously, I cannot scratch out a sentence on my touch-screen tablet without it looking like this: I ammn resly imoresssef withh yur wrutinh skilllls. :laughing:

Okay, onto the more serious matters. (But I am really impressed that you wrote such a expansive theological treatise from your phone, and I am very grateful, too.:slight_smile:)

Your writing covered alot of historical background and theological thought that my non-history major brain looked at a bit confused, but it tried to keep up. So you are saying here that, in continuum with Jewish thought, the Christian view of the Resurrection isn’t “heaven,” per se, but the new creation of our world as we know it already? In this sense, this explains Jesus’ words that eternal life begins now. I had considered the other view that eternal life “now” is in reference to more social justice issues rather than a literal heaven, but the new creation theory makes more sense to me, since there is so much talk in the New Testament about a new earth. And it doesn’t make sense that God would create only to destroy, so I think you’re right about a continuance, a redesign of this world rather than an establishment of something entirely new. Scrapping this world would seem like an admittance that this try was a failure. :confused:

I was thinking earlier how Jesus does promise paradise to the thief on the cross “today.” So is “heaven” also something for the here-and-now, and not a far-off ideal?

And to Grant and everyone, what Old Testament passages speak about a more tangible heaven? (I’m thinking of Isiah most prominently at the moment.) I remember Hellbound? mentioned that Jesus was actually working to unravel the pagan myths of resurrection and judgement swirling around in His day. But this does not preclude that the idea of a heaven–albeit one perhaps different than what we envision now–does it?

Anyway, a million thanks, Grant, for going to the pains to do all of that-- and on your phone no less, which I know is such a hassle! Take it easy, okay, brother?:slight_smile:

Blessings,

Kate

NR got his macro-post off before I could, but I (think I) mostly or entirely agree with him.

Anyway, this is why I don’t bother arguing from a supposed lack of “hell” in the OT. The OT has a lot to say about divine punishment, reward, restoration, quite a number of hints about resurrection (even pre-Isaiah), and a day of YHWH to come when YHWH will actualize these things in the world around us, supercharging Nature with holiness.

It talks about “the heavens”, too, but not really as the place where people go when they die. The heavens are a physical place, below the level of God’s existence, where the gods live – their ideas of the physical characteristics are wrong or at best only poetic, but anyway there isn’t an idea of ‘heaven’ as a separate Nature where spirits go when they die as a final reward, which would make nonsense of the concept of bodily resurrection!

This notion of a supercharged reality to come, to which people fallen in death will return, also applies to the wicked. They aren’t being annihilated out of existence (even annihilationists typically admit the resurrection of the wicked first), and they aren’t being shunted off to some pocket dimension somewhere. They (and the righteous!) may spiritually exist meanwhile in hades, but the various notions of punitive areas for rebel spirits in the OT are still connected directly with we would call the natural world: graves, pits, the swirling depths of terrestrially poisonous (or at least dangerously large) bodies of water, air vapors, even wandering stars which don’t keep their place but which fall to the earth.

The natural world may itself, in effect, die and be resurrected into new heavens and a new earth. But we’re all still in it together, whether being punished or being rewarded.

This seems to be a big reason why reconciliation is so important (though often overlooked in traditional soteriologies) in the OT (and in the NT). Even if there were pocket dimensions or whatever, they still would be Natures or worlds dependent for their existence upon God, not sequestered off from God, so disloyalty and rebellion there must be led back into the communion of God in which God glories (up to the level of His own self-existence upon which everything in reality depends).

We read in Paul’s letter to the Ephesians, “that the evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ to the nations” was kept secret until Jesus revealed it to Paul (by revelation the secret is made known to me Eph 3:3). This revelation was concealed from the eons in God (Eph 3:9). If the secret wasn’t revealed before the Apostle Paul’s time, how could it have been prophesied in the Old Testament?

Eph 3:1 On this behalf I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you, the nations–
3:2 since you surely hear of the administration of the grace of God that is given to me for you,
3:3 for by revelation the secret is made known to me (according as I write before, in brief,
3:4 by which you who are reading are able to apprehend my understanding in the secret of the Christ,
3:5 which, in other generations, is not made known to the sons of humanity as it was now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets): in spirit
3:6 the nations are to be joint enjoyers of an allotment, and a joint body, and joint partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus, through the evangel
3:7 of which I became the dispenser, in accord with the gratuity of the grace of God, which is granted to me in accord with His powerful operation.
3:8 To me, less than the least of all saints, was granted this grace: to bring the evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ to the nations,
3:9 and to enlighten all as to what is the administration of the secret, which has been concealed from the eons in God, Who creates all,
3:10 that now may be made known to the sovereignties and the authorities among the celestials, through the ecclesia, the multifarious wisdom of God,
3:11 in accord with the purpose of the eons, which He makes in Christ Jesus, our Lord;

Except the OT did prophecy several times about the nations joining in the inheritance with Israel under YHWH. That wasn’t the secret, or not to Israel anyway though I could see it counting as a secret to the Gentiles now revealed in Christ Jesus. Paul in Romans complains (citing scripture) that the Jews were repeatedly told the Gentiles would be grafted into the promises.

Paul doesn"t seem to be saying that the existence of “heaven” (in the sense Kate was asking about) was the secret now being revealed. There’s debate of course on what he means exactly. The ancient catholic churches, for example, might argue, on some good grounds, that Paul is talking about the real presence in communion. But so far as the context goes my bet is that he means the outreach of the Messiah to the Gentiles was a secret to the Gentiles now being revealed in Christ Jesus.

(Not that this would necessarily exclude the Presence theory, too. Back in the OT the bread of the face/presence was one of the things intended by God to be used by the Jews as evangelical outreach to the surrounding nations.)

Thank you for the interesting thoughts, everyone.:slight_smile: Yes, I always assumed the “revealing” was of Christ’s identity as Savior-- as the one who the Jews would have recognized in Old Testament prophecy but who is now before all the world.

So, in a nutshell, what is the classic Christian view of heaven? It is a new earth or an otherworldly state? Or both?

(short answer, resurrection and the renewal of the whole cosmos in the promised new heavens and new earth is the classic Christian hope and confession, creation is good and will be even more glorious).

Well it would depend on the question, heaven is part of the total reality of creation, it is the heavenly or unseen dimension of reality which could be termed God’s space where His purposes are seen, and other such beings such as the angelic and so on operate within, and moments where it is unveiled are such as the Lord’s Baptism, the Transfiguration (and note the depiction of the Transfiguration, Elijah and Moses and God speaking through the cloud are right there, they are not far away at all), the depiction of Stephen’s martyrdom, and in say the book of Revelation, where the heavenly perspective on the events that had happened and were happening being are described in apocalyptic language and the vivid and powerful metaphorical imagery it supplies. And Christ ascension isn’t Him leaving but Him taking authority overall all the world as the true Lord of this world, as in the Danielic imagery and as He told the High Priest at the trial, that they shall see the Son of Man coming on clouds of heaven. It’s an upward not a downward movement in Daniel, where the figure of the son of man rises to receive authority from God over the monsters that had been threatening it, humanity freed and given the authority that God always wanted for them to have, in the One through whom the calling to be human has finally been realised, and through whom we will all become fully human too. So the ascension is not Christ leaving us alone, but is rather ascending (and up shouldn’t necessarily be though as a literal vertical ascent - whether the movement between dimensions involved an actual vertical movement to a cloud or that is literary imagery to evoke Daniel, or both, I don’t know - but metaphorical description of relational realities, such as saying someone is going up the world, when they aren’t physically going anywhere, and so on) to His throne over the world at the right hand of the Father, with all power and authority in heaven and earth invested in Him and worked through us the Church, but it’s not done as the ways of the kingdoms of the world, but as He does it, through love, service and self-sacrifice.

But the ultimate purpose is for heaven and earth to unite and become one, and for God’s will to done on earth as it is in in heaven, not as in heaven as it is heaven (it’s already done in that dimension of reality), Jesus came to bring God’s Kingdom to Earth, in John in His confrontation to Pilate it’s often translated as Jesus saying His Kingdom is not of this world, but it’s better to as not from this world, it doesn’t come from our current death-infected world, but it is decidedly for this world. As for what the classic or traditional Christian hope is, it is resurrection, to be raised in a glorified Spirit-empowered body in the new heavens and new earth when the new age that began on the Resurrection comes to completion at His appearing. He is the first-fruits, and as He is we shall be, our mortal bodies shall be clothed with immortality.

So short resurrection and the new creation, as Paul says in Romans all creation groans for the sons of God to be revealed in glory and be set free from the futility it’s been subjected it. We humanity is finally what it should be, then the world shall free at last what it is called it be, and find full being as God floods it with His love and life through humanity who are called to be in His image and likeness, through the truly human One, Christ Jesus, so that all things in heaven and earth are summed up in Him and turned to the Father and God is all in all. To borrow a phrase from NT Wright that is becoming a bit of a cliche, heaven is nice, but it’s not the end of the world :wink: .

As the Nicene creed goes (I’m using the older version without the filioque because it renders it age to come rather world, which though they mean the same thing world can sound misleading and play to the idea for some that we are leaving this world, when were most definitely are not, this is our home and will be even more so :slight_smile: )

'I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of
heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of
God, begotten of the Father before all ages;

Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten,
not created, of one essence with the Father
through Whom all things were made.

Who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven and was incarnate
of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.

He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate,
and suffered and was buried;

And He rose on the third day,
according to the Scriptures.

He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father;

And He will come again with glory to judge the living
and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life,
Who proceeds from the Father, (and the Son is added in most non-Orthodox versions)
Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who
spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the age to come.

Amen

Great posts from NightRevan, Kate.

Two books I found very interesting and helpful: Sitting at the Feet of Rabbi Jesus and Walking in the Dust of Rabbi Jesus – before I forget the names! :laughing:

The Jewish people of Jesus’ day didn’t speak God’s name lightly (one reason we have to guess at the pronunciation of YHWH today – it’s been lost). Instead they used euphemisms: the Power, the Name, Heaven, and probably others I’m not calling to mind at the moment. “Heaven” might also be used to refer to His kingdom – not so much in the sense of a place, but more like you might say, for example back in the day when the monarch of England was in fact a functional monarch, “The crown requires a tariff on all sales of tea in the colonies” (but let’s not open up THAT wound! :laughing: ) “Heaven” can also refer to the “place” where God makes His home of course. All this leads to some confusion.

WE today, when we read Heaven, automatically think of a place – the place where we go when we die. That may be true, or maybe not, if you believe in soul sleep, or that people die and are no more until the resurrection. If those who believe that way are mistaken, then those who die perhaps do go to some sort of spiritual realm we would call “Heaven” as a temporary residence until the end of the ages, well, ends. Primarily, however, when you read “Heaven” in the gospels, it’s not talking about our by & by home (even a temporary one), but about the Kingdom, the governance or the reign of God. “Except a man be born again, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.” Clearly, we must be born again before we will be subject to, will even “see” the reign and rule of God in our lives. “And this is ‘aionian’ life, that they may know You, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent” tells us that we can begin Kingdom life right now, and that Kingdom life means knowing our Father and our Lord. It may include “going somewhere when we die,” but that’s not what it MEANS. When we read about entering the Kingdom of Heaven, we tend to automatically translate that as “the place I will go when I die if I know Jesus or do ______________ (fill in the blank) as I ought.” In most cases, though, I believe it means coming under the authority and governance of the Kingdom of God. This is a thing that happens immediately and incrementally and continuously as I mature in Christ, not after I die, and a thing I should desire and strive to enter into (enter into His rest) right now.

But because we misunderstand what Jesus was saying, what He meant by such terms, we suppose that we will be hopping around on clouds, playing harps and being characters in silly jokes. :wink: I’m only half kidding here. I was shocked to learn that quite a large number of people do in fact see our eternal destination in terms not very dissimilar to such cartoons. I was lucky and never believed that (nor ever supposed that ANYONE believed it) because my sweet mother bought me the WHOLE set of Seventh Day Adventist children’s bible story books. My favorite part was the last book which had wonderful pictures of the new earth. I loved those books (though I confess the Flood and the Yahweh wars bothered me – I looked at the animals going into the Ark and skimmed over all the sad and scary stuff). Anyway, it’s never even occurred to me that the cartoonists were right. :laughing: My DH, however, was relieved to learn that the cartoonists were wrong. :confused: And even my mother (who did not read the books she gave me) was relieved. She also prefers earth to sterile clouds and a harp she wouldn’t know how to play. :unamused: It’s just baffling to me. Baffling. Seriously. But the misunderstanding over the meaning of “Heaven” and of the “Kingdom of God” can doubtless carry most of the blame for the confusion.

I personally think that there IS some sort of interim spiritual state in which we are “absent from the body but present with the Lord” until the resurrection – but I’m not married to that idea. It just seems to make sense to me in light of Jesus’ promise to the thief on the cross, Paul’s statement just referenced (and others), and a few other things. Not proof hardly, but to me they suggest continued consciousness in some realm of some sort, up to the time of the bodily resurrection.

There’s another verse, somewhere, that goes something like, “He knows how to keep the ungodly under correction until the Day of Judgment,” which suggests to me that the lost begin receiving their correction immediately. I LIKE that one, because I don’t want to have to wait for my loved ones to receive needed chastisement before I can see them again (how’s that for self-interest?) Maybe they’ll all be waiting for me then, when I come to join the party. I’d love that. Or at the very least, maybe I can help them find their way home while we wait together for the renewal of all things.

I hope I haven’t gone too far afield, but that’s my take on it. :slight_smile:

Love, Cindy

Actually, there is very little said about heaven in the New Testament also. Many of the passages which are supposed to speak of heaven, actually speak of life right here on earth, either in the present, or in the future. Take John 14, for example. Many think that Christ said he was going away to prepare magnificent mansions in heaven for his disciples. But with a careful reading, it is more likely that, after his departure, He was going to prepare a place for his disciples in his body—the Assembly (or “Church” if you prefer). Every disciple, though different from every other disciple, is a living stone which fits into the house of God, and the whole structure blends together into one magnificent house!

Thank you, Cindy, Grant, and Paidion for such thoughtful answers-- Honestly, I don’t know how you all know so much!:slight_smile:

That’s not a cliche to me, as I’ve never heard it before! I love it! :laughing:

So from what you all are saying, the Resurrection is most certainly literal, definitely in the context of a new Earth, but how do we differentiate Christ’s words as to whether he is speaking of the New Earth or this current Earth, as Paidion mentioned.

I mean, Christ says that he knows to be parted from his body is to be “present with the Lord” in 2 Corinthians 5:8. He goes on to say, “I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far” (Philippians 1:23). So surely we do go somewhere, either directly after death, as Cindy said, or at least someday?

“Resurrection” and “Heaven,” therefore, can’t simply refer to an godly society in the here-and-now? :confused:

Nonetheless, I do really like the interpretation you mentioned, Paidion, about all of Christ’s disciples becoming a part of His “mansion.” To me, this also goes along well with the idea from 1 Corinthians 3 that a purifying fire tests “what we’re made of.” After all, who wants to build a mansion from faulty materials?

Thank you all for the such thorough and intelligent insight-- I wish I could give a worthy reply of your thoughts. But I do really so appreciate all your answers.:slight_smile:

Love,

Kate

I definitely think that there is so much we don’t understand about the Bible and what Jesus said. Especially when it comes to ‘Eternal Life’ or ‘Aionion Life’. The reason, is because 1st John makes no sense when we read Eternal Life to mean ‘Endless Bliss’. It must mean something else, such as ‘quality of life’ or something to that effect. But I’ll be the first to say that I don’t know what It means exactly, but I certainly know (as in believe strongly) it doesn’t mean what most people think it means.

I also think we have mistaken many things Jesus said in this life and have applied them to our future life. That might be because Paul seemed to talk more about the next life… It is a good discussion and one I want to explore more fully in the future.

Resurrection is most definitely literal, in the 1st century the word had no other meaning for anyone, whether they denied it as the whole non-Jewish world did, or affirmed it as some Jews did, resurrection meant bodies, arising out through and beyond death into a full and new kind of physicality, an immortal physicality, which is what much of Paul discussions are with the Corinthian church concern, the nature of the Spirit-empowered body we will have as opposed to the natural sarxish or corruptible mortal body we have now, when talking for instance a soulish or spiritual body, the distinction is one of what powers the body rather than material, such as the distinction between a sail and a steam ship, rather than a wooden or steel ship, the difference is one of what powers and animates and gives life to the body. Then the Holy Spirit will be what powers and animates our bodies and whole nature, the full union and Life of Immortal God Himself, which is what we see in the strangeness of the Resurrection accounts, they know it’s Jesus but they wonder, they touch Him but are unsure what to make of it, they know who He is but want to ask, He sits, talks, eats and fellowships with can appear and disappearing, moving effortlessly between the dimensions of heaven and earth, perfectly at home in both, in His own body the two sides of reality joined and one already.

So yes, resurrection is most definitely physical, it’s the only thing resurrection could ever be, and is the only resurrection the early Christians knew, to refer the term to anything else would be a category mistake. I personally would also separate the terms heaven from resurrection, heaven in this sense is a dimension of reality, which exists within and with the dimension of earth (or vis versa :wink: ) and will be as in Jesus body now be joined together, the whole universe becoming more real and more physical, and both aspects of realities being open and united to each other, as begins to be the case in those ‘thin spaces’ that occur when both more clearly intersect now. So heaven relates to the other dimension of reality, when God’s reality and perspective on events and places can be seen, and in which the angelic and such operate in the universe, while our hope lies in resurrection and the new age and new creation that has come in Messiah Jesus, coming to fulness at the end of this current evil age when all His enemies are defeated and the last death is destroyed at His appearing, all the cosmos being summed up and restored in Him, all creation transfigured through Him and all humanity themselves fully recreated and restored to their true calling as ones in God’s likeness in Christ who has shown and bears the Image of the invisible God, and therefore is the truly human One.

To follow on to Paul’s reference in Philippians 1:23, we have to remember that resurrection implies continuity and results in a two-stage process, that there is a continuity between the body that either dies or is transformed for those alive at Christ’s appearing, and the body as we shall experience it in the future to come. There was a variety of ways of discussing this continuity among 1st century Jews, the Wisdom of Solomon refers to the souls of the righteous in the Hands of God until the time of their visitation by God when something quite different happens and they start running the world on God’s behalf, and Paul is referencing the same idea in relation to the Messiah, which is linked with the Christian understanding that the hoped for resurrection of the dead had split in two, with Christ as the first-fruits and all those in union with Him being raised at His appearing, the Messiah leads the way and everyone else follows, which with this reality means the continuity of those in union with Christ, for whom the resurrection life has already began and is anticipated and promised, live with Him already and continue in and with Him, awaiting the full restoration and resurrection that is promised (and He is in the heavenly dimension of reality that would be where we would be in union with the One who is already raised beyond death, as He lives so do we, and as He is so shall we be at His appearing). As in the raising of Lazarus, pointing towards what was about to happen that He reveals He is the Resurrection and the Life, and that those believe and live in His Way though they die shall live again, and that equally at the same time they shall never died, right there the two-stage nature is outlined, we continue in Him, having a moment of temporary refreshing (Paradise in Luke, the temporary dwellings often translated houses or mansions in John, or the souls before the altar in Revelation) while awaiting the completion of the resurrection, this far better state but not yet resurrection. Paul doesn’t any distinction between those in this intermediate yet better state, all are resting in the same place with Christ, awaiting the resurrection. There isn’t to much precision given to the terms applied to this state of continuity awaiting resurrection whether in early Jewish or Christian sources, sometimes the state of existence is referred to as their soul or other times their spirit, and sometimes as their angel (as we can see in Acts when after believing Peter to be dead and are told he is at the door they think it is his angel, or again when Paul appears before the the Sanhedrin Council), John Polkinghorne the quantum physicist who was part of the discover of the quark, and became an Anglican priest puts it this way, God will download our software onto His hardware until the time He gives us the new and permanent hardware of the resurrection body to run it on.

As the relationship of the new creation, the new heavens and earth to our current position, well we come back to the fact that it wasn’t just a strange moment or unique event when Jesus was raised, rather in the thought of the NT writers, the resurrection of the dead, the return from exile and the Kingdom of God with the forgiveness of sins has happened, and happened in Jesus. But the event has split into two as a mentioned above, the Messiah first, who is vindicated as Messiah in the resurrection and demonstrates that the Kingdom of God has come, the restoration of Israel, in power in that resurrection. Then all the rest of humanity at His appearing, when all His enemies including death have been defeated and destroyed, will be raised beyond death with us creation restored and drawn to completion. The new heavens and earth shouldn’t be thought of as the dismissing of the creation as we know it, but rather the renewal and completion of creation, the old that passes away is the decay, chaos and futility that the creation is currently subject to and is groaning with at present, that when we as humanity are finally what we should be through the truly human One, the one who has fulfilled the calling of God to humanity in showing the image and likeness of God, who is the Image of the invisible God, and when humanity is what is called to be, the Genesis calling, creation can finally be what it is called to be, and reach completion and freedom from the futility and decay has been subjected to, the twin aspects of creation marrying and uniting at last (as in the signpost to that future given in Revelation, heavenly Jerusalem coming down to earth, married together at last). Far from less physical, the new creation at completion will be more physical than ever before, God being all in all.

But in relation to the creation as it is now, the important thing to realise the now-not-yet that applies to us applies to the whole creation, the resurrection and new immortal life beyond death and decay has began already but is not yet complete. The whole cosmos is currently in this intermediate period just as we are, the salvation is universal not just us, and not just humanity but the entire universe, and right now we are between the beginning and inauguration of the new creation, of God’s Kingdom, and it’s fulfilment to come. Jesus is already King and Lord of the World now, and we already partake and share His life, displayed in love and self-sacrificial service affirm life and the conquest of death in all things bringing healing and affirming and supporting in the Spirit the restoration of the human calling to God, each other and creation, of reconciliation and restoration in all things, where Jesus is overthrowing the enemies of humanity and creation until death itself is defeated. We belong to Him and His Kingdom has began, and so in a sense we already share His Resurrection Life and are growing in Him, but as Paul puts it in Romans, all creation groans awaiting release and we groan with it, awaiting the completion of the Kingdom and the destruction of death and the resurrection and renewal of all things. But the new creation is already here, Jesus is King already and the world is under new management, and we are to grow and anticipate and bring that new creation and freedom everywhere, citizens of heaven not as people going somewhere else, but rather here Paul is drawing of the analogy with Roman citizenship. Soldiers and others granted Roman citizenship didn’t go to Rome, they were settled in coloniae cities, to bring imperial culture out into the provinces (the last thing Rome wanted was violent men with time on their hands back in Rome) to to help bring and manifest Rome’s rule throughout the Empire. And in the same way, we are working to see the new reality and management manifest in the world, ambassadors of the new King seeing God’s will done more and more in Earth as it in heaven, seeing people healed and freed and released from all the corruptions of death to be renewed and freed to the dignity and humanity they are called to be, and to witness to truth and justice, and humanities true calling, to each other and to the world. In all things we work for the Kingdom, to see the new creation manifest now, knowing that every act of love, of kindness and generosity, of self-sacrifice and witness and every act to bring restoration and healing to humanity and the world, is building to the Kingdom and won’t be lost, but will be taken up by the Lord at His appearing and made gloriously part of the new creation when death and decay pass away.

Interestingly we see this in the Resurrection accounts, the disciples don’t immediately reflect on the fact that Jesus’ resurrection means they shall be raised to, but rather the resurrection from the dead and God’s Kingdom have arrived, Jesus is King and the true Lord of this World and the hoped for renewal of the world has come. And that means we have a job to do, empowered by His Spirit to work for, anticipate and bring in new creation and affirm His rule and the conquest of death in everything, seeing all enemies of humanity and creation defeated until death itself is destroyed at His appearing and the resurrection and new creation comes in it’s fullness and God will be all in all.

Hope that helps a little :slight_smile: (or perhaps not, but I hope so :wink: )

Night Revan, that was amazing. Because it’s hard for me to concentrate sometimes, I, having seen enough to see how worthwhile it would be to take the trouble to understand it, copied and pasted it into Word and divided it into shorter paragraphs (and sometimes shorter sentences). I hope you don’t mind my posting my slightly revised copy here. It’s just that it’s so great that I want to make sure everyone gets to understand what you’ve said.

I especially appreciated what you said about heaven and earth being together already, though only seen by us in the “thin places” as you so aptly put it. That makes a lot of sense. It makes me think of walking across the prairie. Maybe it’s not like this everywhere, but in many places in South Dakota, you see a seemingly endless expanse of flat grassland, yet when you start walking across it you find it intersected with gulches and gullies, often filled with run-off and rain water. Walking down into one of those places is very like entering another dimension. The heat, the air, the vegetation is so “other” than what you’d expect walking across the hot, rough grassland at the top. So strange. It’s there all the time, but you can only see it if you go looking for it.

The comment about Jesus’ resurrection not being “just a strange moment” was especially good. It really brings out the fact that Jesus’ resurrection wasn’t a one-time thing, but rather the beginning of a whole new thing – the true divide of history (whether one prefers BC/AD or BCE/CE). Really great post – thanks so much!

I don’t mind at all, looking back at it is a little repetitive, it took me a bit to write it completely so I didn’t realise that, but perhaps the repetitive nature is in it’s favour. In anycase, the extra paragraphs help it definitely so thank you :slight_smile: .

:smiley:

Grant,

I’ve been wanting to reply to your wonderful post since I first read it last night, and I’ve been itching to get at it all through work today. As Cindy said, it really is amazing, all you’ve written, with such clarity of mind and intellectual depth. It really does make so much sense to me, regarding both the “big” questions and the “small” ones. I think I will save it for a time when my mind is wondering about the nature of Heaven again-- It was so, so helpful, and I thank you deeply, brother.:slight_smile:

It also makes sense to me now that Christ would have probably initially spoken of ‘heaven’ in a more practical “here and now” bettering of our current world sort of way, because that was initially the core of His ministry-- The fulfilled mystery of His mission, the Resurrection, the conquering of death-- simply hadn’t been entirely revealed yet. There seems to be both an earthly component to ‘everlasting life’ and a heavenly one, as first revealed at the Resurrection and to be fully revealed in our Resurrection, too.

So thank you so much for the thoughtful reply-- it touched on so much of what I was wondering about, it’s like you were up in my head! :wink:

Blessings,

Kate

As a Gnostic Christian, I have no problem with a heaven without a hell.

There is life after death but only apotheosis or theosis will give that Gnosis or sure knowledge to any soul. It seems to be a rare thing but the ancient Gnostics believed in it and having experienced it, I know it to be a real possibility for all who seek God. I have no proof though. There never is in such cases.

I agree that hell does not exist but not because it is not mentioned in the scriptures. I agree on moral reasons as no God worthy of that title would ever created such an immoral construct. Hell is a place in the mind just as heaven can be for us here.

Jesus said.
For where the mind is, there is the treasure.

The treasure is heaven and that is in the mind. The mind holds the link to the Godhead or cosmic consciousness.

Regards
DL

Which Bible translation are you using?

Sonia

I wonder if some translations might say “mind” rather than “heart.” I don’t know of any, but sometimes I think (if I remember right) translations do say “mind” in some places when the actual word is “heart.” Personally, I think that when the original language says “heart,” it ought to be translated “heart.”