Fire, punishment and suffering

[rline]

Hello friends

Take this verse: “Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.”

The lake of fire is obviously not a place you’d want to go if you were thinking straight. And I’ve always associated being “thrown into the lake of fire” with agonising suffering and something like a vicious God throwing in bolts of pain, punishment and generally whipping people silly for all eternity… because that’s what they deserve.

In my ponderings recently (starting with Lefein’s post on John’s Holy Spirit and fire prophecy), I’m starting to wonder whether the Bible gives any clearer ideas of what the fire is for, or what happens in it. In other words, have we actually misunderstood the fire?

I’m sorry if the above is worded poorly, but does anyone know of some relevant parts that would shed light?

[Alex_Smith]

I realise you’re after Bible passages, and I’m sure someone with a better memory then me, will point out some, however, I thought the below might spark some ideas.

However, flames are also:

• purity of the burning bush
• furnaces for metal refining
• temple/sacrificial system
• cooking to improve and make things eatable
• leading Israel during the night in the desert
• Holy Spirit as fire
• burning coals on head (bringing fire to people in the community?)
• brimstone used for medicine
• fire & light closely associated
• Daniel’s friends in the furnace not getting burnt

[rline]

• purity of the burning bush
• furnaces for metal refining
• temple/sacrificial system
• cooking to improve and make things eatable
• leading Israel during the night in the desert
• Holy Spirit as fire
• burning coals on head (bringing fire to people in the community?)
• brimstone used for medicine
• fire & light closely associated
• Daniel’s friends in the furnace not getting burnt

None of them seem like punishment/suffering.

So far, so interesting.

[Gem]

Just read this yesterday, which is full of Scripture:

B. THE FIRE:
I suspect that “The Fire” (including: the lake of fire, the pillar of fire, the fire on
Sodom, the burning bush, the fire in the temple, the fire that ignites Gehenna, the
fire in Daniel’s fiery furnace, and the fire of Pentecost) is Eternal and in some way
divinity Himself. By Eternal I mean beyond temporality and without End, because
It/He is the End.
In Old Testament theophanies, God often appears as fire. “God IS a consuming fire”
(Deuteronomy 4:24). In Scripture fire seems to belong to God in a special way. In
Numbers 3 the sons of Aaron offer “unauthorized fire” before the Lord and suffer
punishment. In Rev. 13, the false prophet must be “allowed” to bring fire down from
heaven. God “answers by fire” (1 Kings 18:24). Fire comes from heaven to consume the
sacrifices. In 2 Chronicles 7 fire comes down and consumes the sacrifices in the temple
and fills the temple with glory. The fire was to be kept burning in the temple at all times.
The sinners in Zion wonder, “Who can dwell with the consuming fire?” (Isaiah 33:14).
Yet in Acts 2, the fire descends and fills the new temple—the Church—and instead of
“consuming” the sacrifices in pain, the fire fills the living sacrifices with joy—in fact the
very Spirit of God.
God is a consuming fire. His Word is “like fire” (Jeremiah 23:29). The Angel of
Yahweh, Son of Man appears as fire. Yet Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego are not
burned by this fire as are the Babylonians. The whole earth will be consumed with God’s
fire (Zephaniah 3:8). Yet one day the Lord himself will be a wall of fire around Jerusalem
and “the glory” in her midst (Zechariah 2:5). Glory is closely associated with fire. In
biblical times, light was also closely associated with fire. God is light and “a fire.”
Jesus came to baptize with fire. He transfigures into one who looks like he’s on fire. In
the Revelation his eyes are like a “flame of fire.” In Luke 12 Jesus states that he came to
cast fire on the earth and that he wished it were already kindled. In Acts 2 the fire falls
and is experienced ecstatically. Paul tells us that in being kind we heap “burning coals”
on the heads of our enemies, as if Love is Fire (Song of Solomon 8:6). He also speaks of
persons being saved, “as through fire.” Peter teaches that our faith is refined like gold as
through fire. In Mark 9:49, Jesus states that we will all be salted with fire. It seems that
the same fire can consume some, purify others, and even fill some with ecstatic joy.
In Matthew 25 Jesus speaks of “eternal fire” and “eternal punishment” that is
analogous to “eternal life.” The life is God’s and the fire is God’s. I think these five
statements are true: God is Light. God is Holy. God is Fire. God is Love. God is one. I
don’t think God changes. However, our experience of him does. I don’t think He’s 25%
light, 25% holy, 25% fire and 25% steadfast love. I don’t think He’s “merciful to a point”
and then is no longer “steadfast love.” He is 100% Light, 100% Holy, 100% Fire, and
100% Steadfast Love, Mercy, Grace, Hesed. Jesus himself is our Judgment.
In the Revelation the Lake of Fire is often referred to as the Lake of Fire and
Brimstone. In the Old Testament “brimstone” falls from the heavens and the breath of
Yahweh is like brimstone (Isaiah 30:33). In the Revelation the Greek word for
“brimstone” is “theion.” I am NO language scholar but it is my understanding that
“theion” can also be translated as “divine being” (Dictionary of Biblical Languages with
Semantic Domains). Perhaps this lake is the “Lake of Fire and Divinity” or “Lake of Fire
that is Divinity” (if the “kai” is epexegetical), or “Lake of Fire that burns with Divinity”
(Rev. 19:20). Some would certainly disagree, but whatever the case, it seems that
“theion” is closely tied to “Theos.” Of course the fire is eternal if the fire is in some sense
divinity. The fire has no end because it is the End.
Torment for darkness is to be exposed to the Light. Torment for lies is to be exposed
to Truth. Torment for death is to be exposed to Life. Torment for any impurity is to be
exposed to the Consuming Fire. Because the agent of torment is eternal, it does not mean
the experience of torment is unending. Sodom and Gomorrah underwent “the punishment
of Eternal Fire” (Jude 7). This does not mean that Sodom and Gomorrah continually and
without end experience the torment of Eternal Fire.

I also ordered his book yesterday, part of which you can look at online here and another part here

[SLJ]

Hi rline,
I’ve been meaning to do a study on “fire” and judgment. So far I’ve only collected a few relevant passages:

1Cr 3:13-15 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Deut 32:22,36,39 For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol, devours the earth and its increase, and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains…"For the LORD will judge His people And have compassion on His servants, When He sees that their power is gone, And there is no one remaining, bond or free…See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isa 50:11 Behold, all you who kindle a fire, who equip yourselves with burning torches! Walk by the light of your fire, and by the torches that you have kindled! This you have from my hand: you shall lie down in torment.

Jer 15:13 “Your wealth and your treasures I will give as spoil, without price, for all your sins, throughout all your territory.
I will make you serve your enemies in a land that you do not know, for in my anger a fire is kindled that shall burn forever.”

Jer 17:4 You shall loosen your hand from your heritage that I gave to you, and I will make you serve your enemies in a land that you do not know, for in my anger a fire is kindled that shall burn forever."

Jer 17:24 “‘But if you listen to me, declares the LORD, and bring in no burden by the gates of this city on the Sabbath day, but keep the Sabbath day holy and do no work on it, then there shall enter by the gates of this city kings and princes who sit on the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they and their officials, the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And this city shall be inhabited forever.
Jer 17:27 But if you do not listen to me, to keep the Sabbath day holy, and not to bear a burden and enter by the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will kindle a fire in its gates, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem and shall not be quenched.’”

Lam 4:11 The LORD gave full vent to his wrath; he poured out his hot anger, and he kindled a fire in Zion that consumed its foundations.

Jer 23:19-21 Behold, the storm of the LORD! Wrath has gone forth, a whirling tempest; it will burst upon the head of the wicked. The anger of the LORD will not turn back until he has executed and accomplished the intents of his heart. In the latter days you will understand it clearly.

Jer 30:17-24 For I will restore health to you, and your wounds I will heal, declares the LORD, because they have called you an outcast: ‘It is Zion, for whom no one cares!’ “Thus says the LORD: Behold, I will restore the fortunes of the tents of Jacob and have compassion on his dwellings; the city shall be rebuilt on its mound, and the palace shall stand where it used to be. Out of them shall come songs of thanksgiving, and the voices of those who celebrate. I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will make them honored, and they shall not be small. Their children shall be as they were of old, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all who oppress them. Their prince shall be one of themselves; their ruler shall come out from their midst; I will make him draw near, and he shall approach me, for who would dare of himself to approach me? declares the LORD. And you shall be my people, and I will be your God.” Behold the storm of the LORD! Wrath has gone forth, a whirling tempest; it will burst upon the head of the wicked. The fierce anger of the LORD will not turn back until he has executed and accomplished the intentions of his mind. In the latter days you will understand this.

Mal 3:2-3 But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the LORD.

[rline]

Gem, thankyou for that extended quote. It’s very interesting and I’ll be doing some more reading of that author.

Sonia, thanks for those verses. I think that so far I’m probably right: my traditional understanding of fire as an instrument of torture, burning alive type thing might be faulty.

[stellar_renegade]

In lieu of Sherman not being in here, I’ll quickly summarize the lake of fire, probably the clearest picture of the fire metaphor:

-sulphur = purification, used in meditation/medicines/sulfur baths, etc
-torment = “basanizos” or “basanite” which was a touchstone used to test the purity of metals, therefore
-fire = purification, as in 1 Cor. 3

Hope that helps!