That IS cool, Sonia! Thanks! What a great analogy. 
Once again, Cindy, I must thank you for calling something to my attention. I must also thank Micah for his kind remarks.
Anyway, as I see it, Romans 11:32 may be the one verse that sums up the Christian gospel (or good news) better than any other single verse in the Bible. But a lot depends on how we understand the idea of being shut up to, or being imprisoned in, disobedience. The rendering in the Revised Standard Version (“For God has consigned all men to disobedience”) may make it appear as if God himself is responsible for the relevant disobedience. So the New Revised Standard Version was quite right, I believe, to replace the idea of being consigned to disobedience with that of being imprisoned in it. As I read the text, then, it expresses the idea that God imprisons each of us in our own disobedience; that is, he requires each of us, so long as we remain unrepentant, to experience the consequences of our disobedience. For how else could his mercy reach us, except by requiring us to learn the hard lessons we sometimes need to learn? Is not Paul’s whole point in Romans 11 that God’s severity, no less than his kindness, expresses his boundless mercy?
As for the scope of “all” here, the parallel structure of the text, so similar to what we see in Romans 5:18 and 1 Corinthians 15:22, persuades me that Paul had in mind here the same reference class that he also had in mind in these other texts, which is all the descendants of Adam (literally all men). Unlike these other texts, it is true, he did not here employ a noun to nail down, so to speak, his reference class. But the topic of discussion in the previous verses includes both Israel and the Gentiles, that is, all the descendants of Adam. So the specific point he made in the context was this: even though the unbelieving Jews were in some sense “enemies of God” (vs. 28), God permitted their “disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy” (vs. 31-NIV). But the general principle (of which the specific point was but an instance) is even more glorious: “For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all” (vs. 32) Note the “For” at the beginning of the sentence. This suggests to me, at least, that the more general principle about all people, as spelled out in verse 32, is precisely what explains God’s specific actions with respect to the disobedient part of Israel.
Well, that’s my own view of the matter, Cindy. Thanks again for calling this discussion to my attention.
-Tom
I likewise find Romans 11:32 to be a most interesting verse. In fact I think it is the grand conclusion of redemptive theology. In this simply stated verse Paul answers three of the hardest questions mankind could have concerning salvation.
- How did sin enter the world?
- What is God’s purpose in sin and salvation?
- Who is finally saved from God’s wrath against sin?
I also agree that the parallel 'all’s are best understood to include all mankind as locked in sin and all mankind as granted mercy. Romans 11:32 is more than just a conclusion of Chapter 11, but is a grand conclusion of Paul whole argument chapter 1 through 11. The ‘all’ in Romans 3:23-24 and 5:18 are the same ‘all’ as Romans 11:32.
I might have a slightly different conclusion than some in the forum about God’s eternal decrees concerning original sin and man’s sin nature, but hopefully they are minor points. Other verses on that subject could include Romans 8:18-21 where ‘one’ is introduced who subjected creation to frustration and then Romans 11:32 reveals that this ‘one’ is God himself. Quite shocking the first time I read that! I almost threw the Bible across the room. Isaiah 30:28 also is an important verse to teach us to fear the Lord.
Because I thought this verse was so important my eBook makes Romans 11:32 the focus of my argument as exegeted here dgjc.org/optimism/romans-11-32-36. Sorry for the outside reference, but the page is too long to paste in a comment here.
Thanks for the good question Cindy.
Thanks so much for your thoughts, Tom and Jeff.
This is really very helpful to me. It fits in so well with a theodicy concerning evil and pain. We are “locked in” to experiencing the full impact and all the repercussions of our unloving, self-serving acts SO that we can receive God’s mercy. I wonder; is it maybe not possible to receive the fullest degree of God’s mercy until we have paid the “uttermost farthing?” That is, until we’ve experienced the true heinous nature of sin? Do we need to become the sorts of persons to whom sin is so very abhorrent, that we are, in consequence, absolutely safe from temptation and also save to be around our brothers and sisters in a situation of complete freedom?
This is an amazing revelation! Not the concept itself, but the realization that this is what Paul meant when he spoke of being imprisoned in sin so that we might all receive mercy. Seriously, I’m pumped! I did already believe this to be the case, but it’s so exciting to see it actually laid out in Romans. This is great! Thanks so much.
The context here is the elect. Paul is speaking to the elect when he says God locks up all in stubbornness. Here’s an example from Romans 8:31-34:
It’s clear when speaking here of “all” Paul means all the elect. This doesn’t mean all won’t eventually be saved though. God has a remnant (elect) chosen in this lifetime by grace. The second fruits are purified with God’s corrective discipline in the Lake Of Fire. For the Bible says God will reconcile all to Himself. This includes the whole creation and fallen angels.
Cole H. > I have become convinced that ‘election’ has more than one dimension. For example Israel was elected for special purposes. Christians are chosen for faith. While all humanity is elected to final salvation. I see at least two dimensions of election in the Book of Romans: 1) the subset chosen for faith, that is believers, and 2) the whole set chosen for final salvation, that is all mankind. Romans 11:28-29 can easily be understood as encouragement to believers concerning the final salvation of even those who do not come to faith before they leave this world. I agree that Romans does talk about those chosen for faith. However, I also think Romans talks about the final salvation of all humanity.
Likewise those in EU discussion should be careful when using the word ‘saved’ because it also has multiple dimensions. One could be saved from harm, sin, fruitlessness, Hades, and the Lake of Fire. I understand that believers are saved from sin dominating our lives, saved from a hardened heart to know God as our loving Heavenly Father, and saved from punishment in Hades. However, unbelievers are not saved from sin dominating their hearts, not saved from hating God and loving self, and not saved from punishment in Hades. Yet I do think all mankind is finally saved from eternal destruction. I wrote an article on that concept over here, dgjc.org/dgjc/saved-5x. I find this distinction important in evangelism when too many have been trained by a ‘get saved’ mentality that simply results in the sale and purchase of fire insurance. Most professing Christians think ‘saved’ simply means saved from eternal damnation. But that is not very specific because those in EU believe all are saved from eternal damnation, but not all are saved from punishment in Hades in the afterlife. Salvation is a much richer concept than fire insurance, but instead total transformation resulting in eternal bliss with the Lord.
Your model of understanding very common in EU, but I still think a better model is that the Lake of Fire is not even prepared for humanity, but only for the Devil and his angels. I started a post over here on that subject and would be very eager to have your constructive input, [Fallen Angels are the Goats on Jesus' Left).
Best wishes and God bless! Jeff.
Hi Jeff!
Thanks for your response but the Bible contradicts you about the elect or God’s chosen people. I would agree with you however about being saved. I include sanctification in there as well. We do experience a change when God opens up the eyes of our hearts to see and behold His beauty. Yes the fire was prepared for satan and his angels but the Bible also says that unbelievers have their portion in it. Anyway, good talking with you buddy!
Thanks for posting back Cole. That is fine that we disagree, but just to be clear I also agree that unbelieving mankind will suffer punishing fires in the afterlife. However, I understand those fire to be limited to Hades. Hades is then emptied at the GWT and fiery torment continues for the Devil and his angels in the LoF. No need to post back, but just wanted to make my understanding clear. Some would say there is no punishment in the afterlife at all for the unbelieving, but I am not in that camp. If you take the time to study any of my propositions I would love to talk further. Thanks again.
It seems to me, whatever the fire is, and i posted a brief view of what I think it is here…
[Kolasis- punishment or torment?)
That those who are cast into it are cast into it after the GWT, as we read in Rev 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
I understand we have only a few verses referring in metaphorical language to what (I think) is a vast occurrence that could embrace an instant or an age- but if one holds the historical literal view on this, it appears to be after that all the dead are delivered from death and Sheol that those who are to be cast into the lake of fire, are.
Also I can only see one possible reference to fire in Hades(Sheol), and that would be in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. All other references to fire in judgment would be connected to the Valley of Hinnom or the Lake of fire or as Jesus defines that, “the fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels”- which He also assigns to hypocrites who had cast out devils in His name and thought they knew Him but didnt in His view…
If the rich man and Lazarus is an actual picture rather than just a parable(totally debatable either way), the wicked rest uneasily in Sheol and the righteous rest in peace in the bosom of Abraham, which in some traditions apparently was a chamber of Sheol.
I don’t have much insight into that, but I am totally familiar with all the scriptures about it. I just think the evidence is inconclusive(seen thru a glass darkly). What I think* is* conclusive is that Rv 20 shows that the dead are raised, they pass before the GWT, and those who are not written in the Lamb’s book of life are cast into the lake of fire/gehenna, to be, imo, bathed in unapproachable light until they bow the knee and confess Jesus as Lord.
My understanding would be that Luke 16 is not a parable, but that the rich man is suffering (or has suffered) in the fires of Hades after he died and was buried. Since Revelation 20 also makes it clear that people are extracted out of Hades it also seems clear that this is real place for punishment in the afterlife. Jesus also promises that the gates of Hades will not have the victory over grace, but vice versa. Furthermore, if the sheep and goat judgment is the same at the great white throne judgment then it is clear that at that time some are saved while others are sent to the lake of fire. The insight that I think is missed is that the great white throne judgment and the sheep and goat sheep includes both humans just extracted from Hades as well as some fallen angels that have been held for final judgment, Jude 6. This is a summary of the reason that I believe that humans are the people saved out of Hades on the right while fallen angels are sentenced further to the lake of fire on the left. This forum post would be a great place to continue that discussion [Fallen Angels are the Goats on Jesus' Left) because much has been said there already on this subject.
My apologies to Cindy. I think we totally hijacked her original questions concerning Romans 11:32. Of course eschatology is the final results of soteriology so it all connects. However, to put us back on track, I think her two original questions where 1) why would God lock up all to disobedience and 2) does all mean all mankind in that context. I personally think all does mean all mankind in Romans 11:32 because the verse is saying that sin effects every individual human being, whether Jew or gentile, just like Romans 3:23 said earlier. The parallel construct then says that God mercy will ultimately extend to every individual. As for why God would decree / ordain the fall of mankind into sin the Biblical answer seems to be that sin and brokenness was needed in order for God to demonstrate mercy and show off his grace. Quite a radical thought.
No worries, Jeff. I would have complained if it bothered me. It does occur though, that you guys’ discussion merits its own thread. Otherwise people who are interested in what you’re talking about might not find it. If you’d like to start one (up to you of course), I’ll be happy to port your conversation over there. If I start it, it would be in my name and it just looks kind of confusing when you do it that way. Let me know if you do. 
Oh yeah – if I don’t seem to be around when/if you do that, tag Jason or Sonia and they can help you too.
Well-nigh a repugnant thought, I think, if followed out logically/thoughtfully. It’s a subject that has been perennially of interest for sure.
I agree, Dave. But I don’t have time to post on it right now; we’re going into town. I’ll get back later.
That God would preordain the eternal torment of multitudes in order to demonstrate His grace on a few is certainly repugnant.
Eaglesway> Just to keep the discussion on target there was no suggestion above that God decreed eternal torment for any part of mankind.
Rather I proposed that Romans 11:32, Romans 8:20-21, and Isaiah 30:28 say that the decree of God is the reason for original sin, man’s sin nature, and even particular sin. I think this is the thought that Cindy and Dave found repugnant. Actually, I find it repugnant myself, except I also find it to be the meaning of those verses. I especially liked Robin Parry’s thought in The Evangelical Universalist when he says on page 23,
God’s sovereignty over sin would be finally repugnant if God did not finally save. However, I believe that God will deliver all mankind, and in such fashion that mankind will have nothing but great praise for what he has done.
I’m not sure that sovereignty is the issue. I do know that my Calvinist friends and relatives do point to sovereignty as the basis for God to do whatever pleases him (thier understanding of ‘providence’) and that they cling to that in the face of the most horrible sins and tragedies - John Piper going so far as to say that he would still praise god even though it was that god’s choice to send Piper’s son into eternal conscious torment.
I think that’s crazy talk. (and I’m not placing any of us in this thread into that camp, whatsoever. This is not personal )
The Romans 8 passage cited is actually talking about the creation, that it will have its own ‘exodus’ - not because it rebelled, but because God desires it to be fully freed through the glorification of his sons and daughters.
As to 11:32, there is good reason to believe that that verse is the summary of the entire book of Romans. One of the main themes of that book is God’s ‘righteousness’ - i.e., His faithfulness to the Covenant. He wanted in the end for both Jews and Gentiles to come into the Kingdom. There was no ‘favored nation’ clause in the Gospel.
A big subject. But the more important thing to me is what do certain doctrines teach about God? Whatever they teach, do they not have to be consonant with the clearest expression of who God is - Jesus? And did he look like the kind of person who was seeking his own glory?
Yes Piper has made foolish claims. His Calvinism has not lead him to the great hope that God has elected all mankind to final salvation, but instead Piper has boasted that he could swallow an immoral view of God. Work is needed to preach the good news even to him. Perhaps he is stuck in his system. Perhaps he needs education about the aeonic duration of punishment in Hades. Parry makes an excellent point in the quote above, but Piper has been derailed from the hopeful conclusion.
My personal view is that as God said, “Light shall shine out of darkness” and as a kernel of the whole creation story…the earth was without form and void and darkness covered the face of the deep and the Spirit hovered over the waters, until God said “Let there be light” and the day and the night, the light and darkness were separated and the waters above separated from the waters below…
God setting the parameters and the course of the creation, order and harmony emerging out of chaos and confusion, love emerging out of hatred, in order to create fellowship with Himself, that apparently(imo) could not have existed without the “lesson” of the fall and the revelation of redemption by sacrifice.
It is all summed up in Romans 11:32-36, and also in Romans 8:19-22 as well as Eph 1- the dispensation of the fulness of times, the gathering together into one of all things in Christ. It could not have been an administration/dispensation/economy of the fulness(pleroma) of times (the same as the fulness the Father made to dwell in Christ in Col 1)unless it involves God dispensing “ALL OF TIME” through the ages from the beginning to the end.
But I just love Romans 11:32-36 as kind of a hub within the “wheels within wheels” of the plan of God…
“For God has locked all into disobedience that he might show mercy to all”… “For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things to whom be the glory throughout the ages”
Affirming the whole plan of God summed up in vs 32, re affirming it as the depth and breadth of His mind in the interim verses(33-35),and a final reason/summation concluding in 36.
But in Romans 8 Paul specifically reveals that the predestination of the “foreknown” was that they be “conformed to the image of Christ” and that their manifestation as a stage in the setting free of the whole creation from futility(chaos, without form and void, darkness on the face of the deep) into liberty(perfect love, new creation in Christ)
Those whom He foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son so that He might become the firstborn among many brethren is a direct follow up to the passage about the whole creation being set free, the revelation of the sons of God and the glorious liberty of the children of God
Since the worlds were created- the ages and the cosmos and all the beings in them- through the Logos, the sacrifice of Christ is the imprint of love between creator and created and was THE INITIAL IMPULSE in the whole plan- Alpha to Omega. The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world…For so it pleased the Father for all the fulness to dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself…
I think it was the beginning/initiation and the end/fulfillment of the plan, that man, through separation/disruption, followed by reconciliation/restoration, would come to know God on a deeper level.
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,…
I try not to get involved in discussions about sovereignty and man’s will, but according to Peter, predestination/election functions in some measure in accordance with the foreknowledge of God, who, sets the larger wheels in motion, knowing absolutely what the end result will be(who causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will-Eph 1:12). The degree to which He acts in each detail over individuals in their times is part of a much wider discussion, but no matter how we see that, I think Romans 8 says that God subjected the creation to futility as the first stage of creation, laying the groundwork for the new creation, in which every being is no longer constrained in anyway, but having fully experienced separation, reconciliation and restoration is now fully in the love of God, flowing freely the all in all.
I think it is only in this way could God bring us into true fellowship with Himself.
I like this, Eagle’s Way, and if I’m reading you right, I agree. Thanks!
Eaglesway says…
which is just what I meant by…
I would still love comments on my article here at dgjc.org/optimism/romans-11-32-36. Here is a snippet for discussion from that page…