The Evangelical Universalist Forum

For God locks up all together in stubbornness

Evangelical Universalism Arguments for Evangelical Universalism
#1

I’m reading (slowly) Tom Talbott’s revised version of The Inescapable Love of God and once again I’m reminded of what seems to me a very puzzling verse:

I see the significance of this verse for CU, but I seldom use it, because I don’t understand why God would “lock up all together in stubbornness.” Reading this in context, I also wonder whether Paul is talking about ALL ALL, or (in this case) ALL of the resistant Jews. To me it would make more sense if it referred to the resistant Jews, but that would limit its CU usefulness to the physical children of Israel and to the fact that God is no respecter of persons. Sure, it would still work in the sense that the first “all” doesn’t necessarily have to be all inclusive in order for the second “all” to mean all the world. (I don’t think so anyway.) But I’d love to year you guys’ take on it. I have some inklings, but I’m just not sure.

Thanks!
Cindy

#2

Hi, Cindy –

I really enjoyed Dr. Talbott’s book!

Am wondering if this might dovetail with the idea that God was willing to create our world, knowing full well that we all would be fallen and have to go through a learning process, a struggle to emerge as truly living, loving persons through the Son. We all were willingly locked up in the mire of sorting this all out, so that through the process we could all become true persons, through the mercies of God – because there was no other way to create genuine persons. (?)

So then maybe it’s not ultimately ‘Jacob I loved; Esau I hated’, but God ‘hated’ all because he Loved all. He will harden those whom He will harden, and show mercy to whom He will show mercy – both of which applies to all of us at different stages of our development.

Kind of goes with the verse in Psalm 5, saying God ‘hates’ all evildoers…which is everyone!

Or am I reaching here? :slight_smile:

#3

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight

Eph 2:2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

I don’t think you are over reaching. There is a repeated theme in these verses plus Romans 11:32-36

32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

It looks to me like God set the plan in motion from the beginning from the fall to the reconciliation of the last adversary. Every single one besides Adam and Jesus, began as adversaries, “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God”. Called, justified, glorified, predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, for the purpose of reconciling all things as a kingdom of priests in the ages to come.

#4

Ah thanks for all the verses, Eaglesway :slight_smile:. There does seem to be a lot of resonance there with these ideas.

#5

This is how I see it as well.

#6

In context Paul is talking about the Jews rejecting Jesus so that the Gentiles might recieve Him. God controlling nations can only be understood in the light of knowing that God ultimately reconciles all. We do not choose to be born into this evil world, born selfish, born in any particular culture or in a particular family. Concerning our lives, 95% we do not choose, but is chosen for us by God. So if one happens to be born in a “nation”, a people who is not Christian, a culture that is predisposed to reject Christianity, it is only right for God to have mercy on us all and ultimately free us all from our common slavery to disobedience/selfishness.

Why would God consign all to disobedience? I believe it was part of his plan to bring us all into relationship with him, to express his love and to be loved. Love is tested and grown in conflict much more than in peace.

#7

Well-said, Sherman.

This discussion of Israel being hardened so that the Gentiles can be blessed (and Israel ultimately blessed through that) comes on the heels of discussing Esau and Pharoah being hardened/‘hated’ so that Jacob/Israel could be blessed. So the scope of the examples of hardening encompasses all, Israel or not; and it seems natural that the showing mercy to all would have this same universal scope.

Seems like the pattern is that the one who is hardened is ultimately blessed, themselves, by the mercy shown to another, thus making the initial hardening really an act of mercy as well. The severity of God’s mercy, as I think Dr. Talbott referred to it?

#8

Yes, yes he did, Micah. And thanks everyone for your great comments. They’re very helpful. Eagle’s Way, what a great and uplifting set of passages!

I actually kind of got hung up on exploring the verse I posted in the OP and didn’t read further in the book until later in the day. Tom (I’m just going to go ahead and tag him as a courtesy, since we’re discussing his book [tag]tomtalbott[/tag]) Tom brings up the meaning of the word “hardened” as possibly being more accurately interpreted as “strengthened,” at least in similar cases to that of Pharaoh. (I’m just going from memory here, so do read it for yourself.) I like this; it makes sense. Pharaoh was a narcissistic dictator type at heart. That was what was in him. But like many bullies, perhaps he wasn’t all that courageous. Maybe he had enough self-preservation instinct to bow to God’s actions against his stubbornness. But that wouldn’t do him any good, would it, since he would only be bowing out of self-interest and not out of genuine heart repentance. He would be obeying because of superior force, not because he realized he’d been wrong and wanted to become like Jesus. (Hardly!) So God strengthened Pharaoh’s heart to do all that he (Pharaoh) desired to do.

In following his natural inclinations without fear, Pharaoh was “locked up in disobedience” to experience all the fruit of his unloving heart actions. He wasn’t saved from that knowledge by his survival instinct, but “locked in” to the experience, to witness the results of his motivations and actions to the full. This goes along with what you were saying, Micah, about becoming “true persons.” That’s a really good point. So maybe God “locks us up in disobedience” by setting up events in such a way that we each have to experience the fruit of what is in our hearts – so that we’ll KNOW to reject the bitter and choose the sweet. And Sherman brings in the idea that love is tested and grown in conflict more than in peace. Very true. Maybe this especially applies to those who suffer from the actions of those who are expressing the fulness of the disease of their hearts – pouring their own unlove out, all over those who love them.

So maybe shutting us all up to disobedience basically means forcing us to experience the true outcome of our selfishness (which we might otherwise be spared because of self-preservation instincts). Thus God can expose our sinfulness – bring it out so that we can/must see it in all its shamefulness. That way, we can be motivated to reject these things that so harm us and others, and receive cleansing and purification from them.

This is really helping me approach an understanding of this passage. Thanks, guys! :smiley:

Blessings, Cindy

#9

I don’t know how relevant you’ll find it, Cindy, but I noticed some time ago that that word translated “locks up” is the same word used of fish captured in a net. I think that’s pretty cool.

Luk 5:6
When they had done this, they enclosed G4788 a great quantity of fish, and their nets began to break

Sonia

#10

That IS cool, Sonia! Thanks! What a great analogy. :smiley:

#11

Once again, Cindy, I must thank you for calling something to my attention. I must also thank Micah for his kind remarks.

Anyway, as I see it, Romans 11:32 may be the one verse that sums up the Christian gospel (or good news) better than any other single verse in the Bible. But a lot depends on how we understand the idea of being shut up to, or being imprisoned in, disobedience. The rendering in the Revised Standard Version (“For God has consigned all men to disobedience”) may make it appear as if God himself is responsible for the relevant disobedience. So the New Revised Standard Version was quite right, I believe, to replace the idea of being consigned to disobedience with that of being imprisoned in it. As I read the text, then, it expresses the idea that God imprisons each of us in our own disobedience; that is, he requires each of us, so long as we remain unrepentant, to experience the consequences of our disobedience. For how else could his mercy reach us, except by requiring us to learn the hard lessons we sometimes need to learn? Is not Paul’s whole point in Romans 11 that God’s severity, no less than his kindness, expresses his boundless mercy?

As for the scope of “all” here, the parallel structure of the text, so similar to what we see in Romans 5:18 and 1 Corinthians 15:22, persuades me that Paul had in mind here the same reference class that he also had in mind in these other texts, which is all the descendants of Adam (literally all men). Unlike these other texts, it is true, he did not here employ a noun to nail down, so to speak, his reference class. But the topic of discussion in the previous verses includes both Israel and the Gentiles, that is, all the descendants of Adam. So the specific point he made in the context was this: even though the unbelieving Jews were in some sense “enemies of God” (vs. 28), God permitted their “disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy” (vs. 31-NIV). But the general principle (of which the specific point was but an instance) is even more glorious: “For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all” (vs. 32) Note the “For” at the beginning of the sentence. This suggests to me, at least, that the more general principle about all people, as spelled out in verse 32, is precisely what explains God’s specific actions with respect to the disobedient part of Israel.

Well, that’s my own view of the matter, Cindy. Thanks again for calling this discussion to my attention.

-Tom

#12

I likewise find Romans 11:32 to be a most interesting verse. In fact I think it is the grand conclusion of redemptive theology. In this simply stated verse Paul answers three of the hardest questions mankind could have concerning salvation.

  1. How did sin enter the world?
  2. What is God’s purpose in sin and salvation?
  3. Who is finally saved from God’s wrath against sin?

I also agree that the parallel 'all’s are best understood to include all mankind as locked in sin and all mankind as granted mercy. Romans 11:32 is more than just a conclusion of Chapter 11, but is a grand conclusion of Paul whole argument chapter 1 through 11. The ‘all’ in Romans 3:23-24 and 5:18 are the same ‘all’ as Romans 11:32.

I might have a slightly different conclusion than some in the forum about God’s eternal decrees concerning original sin and man’s sin nature, but hopefully they are minor points. Other verses on that subject could include Romans 8:18-21 where ‘one’ is introduced who subjected creation to frustration and then Romans 11:32 reveals that this ‘one’ is God himself. Quite shocking the first time I read that! I almost threw the Bible across the room. Isaiah 30:28 also is an important verse to teach us to fear the Lord.

Because I thought this verse was so important my eBook makes Romans 11:32 the focus of my argument as exegeted here dgjc.org/optimism/romans-11-32-36. Sorry for the outside reference, but the page is too long to paste in a comment here.

Thanks for the good question Cindy.

#13

Thanks so much for your thoughts, Tom and Jeff. :smiley:

This is really very helpful to me. It fits in so well with a theodicy concerning evil and pain. We are “locked in” to experiencing the full impact and all the repercussions of our unloving, self-serving acts SO that we can receive God’s mercy. I wonder; is it maybe not possible to receive the fullest degree of God’s mercy until we have paid the “uttermost farthing?” That is, until we’ve experienced the true heinous nature of sin? Do we need to become the sorts of persons to whom sin is so very abhorrent, that we are, in consequence, absolutely safe from temptation and also save to be around our brothers and sisters in a situation of complete freedom?

This is an amazing revelation! Not the concept itself, but the realization that this is what Paul meant when he spoke of being imprisoned in sin so that we might all receive mercy. Seriously, I’m pumped! I did already believe this to be the case, but it’s so exciting to see it actually laid out in Romans. This is great! Thanks so much. :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

#14

The context here is the elect. Paul is speaking to the elect when he says God locks up all in stubbornness. Here’s an example from Romans 8:31-34:

It’s clear when speaking here of “all” Paul means all the elect. This doesn’t mean all won’t eventually be saved though. God has a remnant (elect) chosen in this lifetime by grace. The second fruits are purified with God’s corrective discipline in the Lake Of Fire. For the Bible says God will reconcile all to Himself. This includes the whole creation and fallen angels.

#15

Cole H. > I have become convinced that ‘election’ has more than one dimension. For example Israel was elected for special purposes. Christians are chosen for faith. While all humanity is elected to final salvation. I see at least two dimensions of election in the Book of Romans: 1) the subset chosen for faith, that is believers, and 2) the whole set chosen for final salvation, that is all mankind. Romans 11:28-29 can easily be understood as encouragement to believers concerning the final salvation of even those who do not come to faith before they leave this world. I agree that Romans does talk about those chosen for faith. However, I also think Romans talks about the final salvation of all humanity.

Likewise those in EU discussion should be careful when using the word ‘saved’ because it also has multiple dimensions. One could be saved from harm, sin, fruitlessness, Hades, and the Lake of Fire. I understand that believers are saved from sin dominating our lives, saved from a hardened heart to know God as our loving Heavenly Father, and saved from punishment in Hades. However, unbelievers are not saved from sin dominating their hearts, not saved from hating God and loving self, and not saved from punishment in Hades. Yet I do think all mankind is finally saved from eternal destruction. I wrote an article on that concept over here, dgjc.org/dgjc/saved-5x. I find this distinction important in evangelism when too many have been trained by a ‘get saved’ mentality that simply results in the sale and purchase of fire insurance. Most professing Christians think ‘saved’ simply means saved from eternal damnation. But that is not very specific because those in EU believe all are saved from eternal damnation, but not all are saved from punishment in Hades in the afterlife. Salvation is a much richer concept than fire insurance, but instead total transformation resulting in eternal bliss with the Lord.

Your model of understanding very common in EU, but I still think a better model is that the Lake of Fire is not even prepared for humanity, but only for the Devil and his angels. I started a post over here on that subject and would be very eager to have your constructive input, [Fallen Angels are the Goats on Jesus' Left).

Best wishes and God bless! Jeff.

#16

Hi Jeff!

Thanks for your response but the Bible contradicts you about the elect or God’s chosen people. I would agree with you however about being saved. I include sanctification in there as well. We do experience a change when God opens up the eyes of our hearts to see and behold His beauty. Yes the fire was prepared for satan and his angels but the Bible also says that unbelievers have their portion in it. Anyway, good talking with you buddy!

#17

Thanks for posting back Cole. That is fine that we disagree, but just to be clear I also agree that unbelieving mankind will suffer punishing fires in the afterlife. However, I understand those fire to be limited to Hades. Hades is then emptied at the GWT and fiery torment continues for the Devil and his angels in the LoF. No need to post back, but just wanted to make my understanding clear. Some would say there is no punishment in the afterlife at all for the unbelieving, but I am not in that camp. If you take the time to study any of my propositions I would love to talk further. Thanks again.

#18

It seems to me, whatever the fire is, and i posted a brief view of what I think it is here…

[Kolasis- punishment or torment?)

That those who are cast into it are cast into it after the GWT, as we read in Rev 20

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

I understand we have only a few verses referring in metaphorical language to what (I think) is a vast occurrence that could embrace an instant or an age- but if one holds the historical literal view on this, it appears to be after that all the dead are delivered from death and Sheol that those who are to be cast into the lake of fire, are.

Also I can only see one possible reference to fire in Hades(Sheol), and that would be in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. All other references to fire in judgment would be connected to the Valley of Hinnom or the Lake of fire or as Jesus defines that, “the fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels”- which He also assigns to hypocrites who had cast out devils in His name and thought they knew Him but didnt in His view…

If the rich man and Lazarus is an actual picture rather than just a parable(totally debatable either way), the wicked rest uneasily in Sheol and the righteous rest in peace in the bosom of Abraham, which in some traditions apparently was a chamber of Sheol.

I don’t have much insight into that, but I am totally familiar with all the scriptures about it. I just think the evidence is inconclusive(seen thru a glass darkly). What I think* is* conclusive is that Rv 20 shows that the dead are raised, they pass before the GWT, and those who are not written in the Lamb’s book of life are cast into the lake of fire/gehenna, to be, imo, bathed in unapproachable light until they bow the knee and confess Jesus as Lord.

#19

My understanding would be that Luke 16 is not a parable, but that the rich man is suffering (or has suffered) in the fires of Hades after he died and was buried. Since Revelation 20 also makes it clear that people are extracted out of Hades it also seems clear that this is real place for punishment in the afterlife. Jesus also promises that the gates of Hades will not have the victory over grace, but vice versa. Furthermore, if the sheep and goat judgment is the same at the great white throne judgment then it is clear that at that time some are saved while others are sent to the lake of fire. The insight that I think is missed is that the great white throne judgment and the sheep and goat sheep includes both humans just extracted from Hades as well as some fallen angels that have been held for final judgment, Jude 6. This is a summary of the reason that I believe that humans are the people saved out of Hades on the right while fallen angels are sentenced further to the lake of fire on the left. This forum post would be a great place to continue that discussion [Fallen Angels are the Goats on Jesus' Left) because much has been said there already on this subject.

My apologies to Cindy. I think we totally hijacked her original questions concerning Romans 11:32. Of course eschatology is the final results of soteriology so it all connects. However, to put us back on track, I think her two original questions where 1) why would God lock up all to disobedience and 2) does all mean all mankind in that context. I personally think all does mean all mankind in Romans 11:32 because the verse is saying that sin effects every individual human being, whether Jew or gentile, just like Romans 3:23 said earlier. The parallel construct then says that God mercy will ultimately extend to every individual. As for why God would decree / ordain the fall of mankind into sin the Biblical answer seems to be that sin and brokenness was needed in order for God to demonstrate mercy and show off his grace. Quite a radical thought.

#20

No worries, Jeff. I would have complained if it bothered me. It does occur though, that you guys’ discussion merits its own thread. Otherwise people who are interested in what you’re talking about might not find it. If you’d like to start one (up to you of course), I’ll be happy to port your conversation over there. If I start it, it would be in my name and it just looks kind of confusing when you do it that way. Let me know if you do. :slight_smile:

Oh yeah – if I don’t seem to be around when/if you do that, tag Jason or Sonia and they can help you too.