Well-nigh a repugnant thought, I think, if followed out logically/thoughtfully. It’s a subject that has been perennially of interest for sure.
I agree, Dave. But I don’t have time to post on it right now; we’re going into town. I’ll get back later. 
That God would preordain the eternal torment of multitudes in order to demonstrate His grace on a few is certainly repugnant.
Eaglesway> Just to keep the discussion on target there was no suggestion above that God decreed eternal torment for any part of mankind.
Rather I proposed that Romans 11:32, Romans 8:20-21, and Isaiah 30:28 say that the decree of God is the reason for original sin, man’s sin nature, and even particular sin. I think this is the thought that Cindy and Dave found repugnant. Actually, I find it repugnant myself, except I also find it to be the meaning of those verses. I especially liked Robin Parry’s thought in The Evangelical Universalist when he says on page 23,
God’s sovereignty over sin would be finally repugnant if God did not finally save. However, I believe that God will deliver all mankind, and in such fashion that mankind will have nothing but great praise for what he has done.
I’m not sure that sovereignty is the issue. I do know that my Calvinist friends and relatives do point to sovereignty as the basis for God to do whatever pleases him (thier understanding of ‘providence’) and that they cling to that in the face of the most horrible sins and tragedies - John Piper going so far as to say that he would still praise god even though it was that god’s choice to send Piper’s son into eternal conscious torment.
I think that’s crazy talk. (and I’m not placing any of us in this thread into that camp, whatsoever. This is not personal 
)
The Romans 8 passage cited is actually talking about the creation, that it will have its own ‘exodus’ - not because it rebelled, but because God desires it to be fully freed through the glorification of his sons and daughters.
As to 11:32, there is good reason to believe that that verse is the summary of the entire book of Romans. One of the main themes of that book is God’s ‘righteousness’ - i.e., His faithfulness to the Covenant. He wanted in the end for both Jews and Gentiles to come into the Kingdom. There was no ‘favored nation’ clause in the Gospel.
A big subject. But the more important thing to me is what do certain doctrines teach about God? Whatever they teach, do they not have to be consonant with the clearest expression of who God is - Jesus? And did he look like the kind of person who was seeking his own glory?
Yes Piper has made foolish claims. His Calvinism has not lead him to the great hope that God has elected all mankind to final salvation, but instead Piper has boasted that he could swallow an immoral view of God. Work is needed to preach the good news even to him. Perhaps he is stuck in his system. Perhaps he needs education about the aeonic duration of punishment in Hades. Parry makes an excellent point in the quote above, but Piper has been derailed from the hopeful conclusion.
My personal view is that as God said, “Light shall shine out of darkness” and as a kernel of the whole creation story…the earth was without form and void and darkness covered the face of the deep and the Spirit hovered over the waters, until God said “Let there be light” and the day and the night, the light and darkness were separated and the waters above separated from the waters below…
God setting the parameters and the course of the creation, order and harmony emerging out of chaos and confusion, love emerging out of hatred, in order to create fellowship with Himself, that apparently(imo) could not have existed without the “lesson” of the fall and the revelation of redemption by sacrifice.
It is all summed up in Romans 11:32-36, and also in Romans 8:19-22 as well as Eph 1- the dispensation of the fulness of times, the gathering together into one of all things in Christ. It could not have been an administration/dispensation/economy of the fulness(pleroma) of times (the same as the fulness the Father made to dwell in Christ in Col 1)unless it involves God dispensing “ALL OF TIME” through the ages from the beginning to the end.
But I just love Romans 11:32-36 as kind of a hub within the “wheels within wheels” of the plan of God…
“For God has locked all into disobedience that he might show mercy to all”… “For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things to whom be the glory throughout the ages”
Affirming the whole plan of God summed up in vs 32, re affirming it as the depth and breadth of His mind in the interim verses(33-35),and a final reason/summation concluding in 36.
But in Romans 8 Paul specifically reveals that the predestination of the “foreknown” was that they be “conformed to the image of Christ” and that their manifestation as a stage in the setting free of the whole creation from futility(chaos, without form and void, darkness on the face of the deep) into liberty(perfect love, new creation in Christ)
Those whom He foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son so that He might become the firstborn among many brethren is a direct follow up to the passage about the whole creation being set free, the revelation of the sons of God and the glorious liberty of the children of God
Since the worlds were created- the ages and the cosmos and all the beings in them- through the Logos, the sacrifice of Christ is the imprint of love between creator and created and was THE INITIAL IMPULSE in the whole plan- Alpha to Omega. The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world…For so it pleased the Father for all the fulness to dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself…
I think it was the beginning/initiation and the end/fulfillment of the plan, that man, through separation/disruption, followed by reconciliation/restoration, would come to know God on a deeper level.
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,…
I try not to get involved in discussions about sovereignty and man’s will, but according to Peter, predestination/election functions in some measure in accordance with the foreknowledge of God, who, sets the larger wheels in motion, knowing absolutely what the end result will be(who causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will-Eph 1:12). The degree to which He acts in each detail over individuals in their times is part of a much wider discussion, but no matter how we see that, I think Romans 8 says that God subjected the creation to futility as the first stage of creation, laying the groundwork for the new creation, in which every being is no longer constrained in anyway, but having fully experienced separation, reconciliation and restoration is now fully in the love of God, flowing freely the all in all.
I think it is only in this way could God bring us into true fellowship with Himself.
I like this, Eagle’s Way, and if I’m reading you right, I agree. Thanks!
Eaglesway says…
which is just what I meant by…
I would still love comments on my article here at dgjc.org/optimism/romans-11-32-36. Here is a snippet for discussion from that page…