The Evangelical Universalist Forum

For Those Who Rail Against Hell by John Macarthur

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

A new series by John Macarthur

gty.org/Blog/B110426

*Spurgeon said from his pulpit:

Until we know the power of divine grace, we read in the Bible concerning eternal punishment, and we think it is too heavy and too hard, and we are apt to kick against it, and find out some heretic or other who teaches us another doctrine; but when the soul is really quickened by divine grace, and made to feel the weight of sin, it thinks the bottomless pit none too deep, and the punishment of hell none too severe for sin such as it has committed. (“Confession of Sin Illustrated by the Cases of Dr. Pritchard and Constance Kent”)

C. S. Lewis, no stranger to the difficulty of Hell himself

“In all discussions of hell we should keep steadily before our eyes the possible damnation, not of our enemies nor our friends…but of ourselves.”* gty.org/Blog/B110426

#2

It would help if their assumptions weren’t so wrong. For example, the 2nd paragraph says:

"To be clear, we’re concerned here with the nature of Hell, not just its existence. In fact, you can’t escape the reality of Hell or final judgment in Scripture. It’s a topic taken up by every New Testament writer and it dominates the teaching of Jesus. Of the 12 times the Greek word for Hell (Gehenna) is used in the New Testament, 11 come from the lips of Christ. He said the most about Hell, so to deny the existence of Hell is to deny the teachings of Jesus."

However, “Gehenna” is NOT the Greek word for Hell. In fact, Gehenna is not actually a Greek word, but the Greek transliteration of Ga Hinnom, Hebrew for the valley of Hinnom just outside Jerusalem. The Greek word that best conveys the concept of Hell (ECT) is Tartarus. Tartarus in Greek Mythology was the torturous realm within Hades (the realm of the dead). If the NT writers intended to speak of ECT, Tartarus would have been the word to use, especially when writing to the Greeks. It’s also significant to note that Tartarus was not used in the LXX to translate Sheol; rather, the general term Hades (realm of the dead, grave) was used. It’s also significant to note that of the 11 times Gehenna is used by Jesus, it’s only 8 seperate passages, and of those 8, 2 are parallel passages of Matthew’s in Mark and Luke. So in reality there are only 6 distinct uses of Gehenna, all in Matthew, and of these 6 most are specifically leveled at the Pharisees. And the Pharisees surely understood the OT context of Gehenna as being a sign of Judgment against Israel’s wickedness, and there is evidence that they, the Pharisees, thought of it primarily as a place of fiery judgment and remedial punishment in the afterlife, an encounter with the fire of truth that purges one of evil. And of course, Matthew was written to the Jews who would have understood the intended meaning of Gehenna, and would not have mistaken it for the Greek myth Tartarus.

So Jesus did not warn of Hell, but warned the Jews of Gehenna, the judgment of God against Israel by Rome, and likely was warning specifically the Pharisees, even calling them “sons of Gehenna”.

And of course, James is the only other NT writer that speaks of Gehenna, and even there it is not a warning of a place someone will go, but a source from which someone speaks.

I weary of people, especially theologians who should know better, making such outlandish ignorant statements like in the 2nd paragraph of the referenced blog.

#3

Just for the record: the article liked above is actually written by a Tommy Clayton, not MacArthur.

Sonia

#4

Sherman, you sayeth: "…there is evidence that they, the Pharisees, thought of it primarily as a place of fiery judgment and remedial punishment in the afterlife, an encounter with the fire of truth that purges one of evil…
Where can I find this evidence, it sounds intriguing!

#5

All the more reason to believe that God is merciful to those who exhibit righteousness.

*“Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” - I John 3:7 *

“He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?” - Micah 6:8

“Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.” - Matthew 5:7

#6

Only because He previously was merciful to the unjust. As in “while we were yet sinners…”

#7

Of course. I’m not sure many of us would disagree with this. That doesn’t necessitate, however, an infinite amount of time within it. It may SEEM to be infinite, but that doesn’t mean that it would literally have to be.

And now the Yeah Yeah Yeahs are singing, “We’re all gonna burn in hell…” :laughing:

#8

Hi Oxymoron

Again. throwing quotes does not make a doctrine true. They are just repeating what many of us here at EU once believed. They are just keeping the “party line” and not showing where we are wrong in our understanding of “Gehenna” in its context and culture. I don’t have a problem with some kind of judgment (Lake of Fire), just on the duration of it.

What is your rebutal to what Sherman said about “Gehanna” and what would be your evidence of your belief that “Gehenna”= ECT? And just because it is translated (mistakenly IMO) in most english Bibles as “hell” does not count.

Grace and peace

#9

Of course, URPilgrim, we need to hear Sherman’s actual evidence (versus just “throwing quotes” as you have mentioned).

#10

The following are a couple of sources and if you want to research more, they mention their sources in the Mishnah and Talmud.

religionfacts.com/judaism/beliefs/afterlife.htm
Judgment
Traditional Judaism includes belief in both heaven and hell, as we will see below. How is one’s destination decided? The School of Shammai offered this description:
There will be three groups on the Day of Judgment: one of thoroughly righteous people, one of thoroughly wicked people and one of people in between. The first group will be immediately inscribed for everlasting life; the second group will be doomed in Gehinnom [Hell], as it says, “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence” [Daniel 12:2], the third will go down to Gehinnom and squeal and rise again, as it says, “And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on My name and I will answer them” [Zechariah 13:9]… [Babylonian Talmud, tractate Rosh Hashanah 16b-17a]
The school of Hillel suggested a more merciful view, in which the middle group are sent directly to Gan Eden (Heaven) instead of Gehinnom after death. Rabbi Hanina added that all who go down to Gehinnom will go up again, except adulterers, those who put their fellows to shame in public, and those who call their fellows by an obnoxious name [Babylonian Talmud, tractate Baba Metzia 58b].
…
Gehinnom: Hell
The Jewish concept of the afterlife for the wicked is less developed. Known as Gehinnom (Gehenna in Yiddish) or Sheo’l, it has its foundations in the dark pit described in the Torah (see above) and an actual place where a pagan cult conducted rituals included burning children (see the description in II Kings 23:10 and Jeremiah 7:31).
Gehinnom is the postmortem destination of unrighteous Jews and Gentiles. In one reference, the souls in Gehinnom are punished for up to 12 months. After the appropriate period of purification, the righteous continue on to Gan Eden (Rabbi Akiba and Babylonian Talmud, tractate Eduyot 2:10). The wicked endure the full year of punishment then are either annihilated (“After 12 months, their body is consumed and their soul is burned and the wind scatters them under the soles of the feet of the righteous (Rosh Hashanah 17a)”) or continue to be punished.
This belief is the basis for the Jewish practice of mourning and asking blessings on deceased loved ones for only 11 months (one would not wish to imply that the departed needed the full 12 months of purification).

near-death.com/experiences/judaism06.html
As implied in the Book of Daniel, the Jewish notion of resurrection in the Maccabeean period was tied to a notion of judgment, and even to separate realms for the judged. In rabbinical thought, the model for heaven was Eden. The rabbinic word for hell, “Gehenna”, is taken from the name of a valley of fire where children were said to be sacrificed as burnt offerings to Baal and Moloch (Semitic deities). Gehenna is a place of intense punishment and cleansing. This place is also known as “She’ol” and other names. This line of Jewish thought argues that after death the soul has to be purified before it can go on the rest of its journey. The amount of time needed for purification depends on how the soul dealt with life. One Jewish tradition states that a soul needs a maximum of 11 months for purification, which is why, when a parent dies, the kaddish (memorial prayer) is recited for 11 months. The concept of Gehenna as a place for temporary purification was the source for the orthodox Christian doctrine of “purgatory.”

http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm
Only the very righteous go directly to Gan Eden. The average person descends to a place of punishment and/or purification, generally referred to as Gehinnom (guh-hee-NOHM) (in Yiddish, Gehenna), but sometimes as She’ol or by other names. According to one mystical view, every sin we commit creates an angel of destruction (a demon), and after we die we are punished by the very demons that we created. Some views see Gehinnom as one of severe punishment, a bit like the Christian Hell of fire and brimstone. Other sources merely see it as a time when we can see the actions of our lives objectively, see the harm that we have done and the opportunities we missed, and experience remorse for our actions. The period of time in Gehinnom does not exceed 12 months, and then ascends to take his place on Olam Ha-Ba.
Only the utterly wicked do not ascend at the end of this period; their souls are punished for the entire 12 months. Sources differ on what happens at the end of those 12 months: some say that the wicked soul is utterly destroyed and ceases to exist while others say that the soul continues to exist in a state of consciousness of remorse.

#11

Thank you Sherman. These are very similar to the sources I have read.

#12

It was studying what scripture actually says concerning judgment and the punishment of sin that freed me to accept in faith that Jesus reconciled and is reconciling all of creation to God by the cross, that Jesus really is the savior of all humanity, especially, not “only”, we who believe. And it was the lack of scriptural evidence that can even be interpreted to speak of ECT that was most astounding to me. To me, if ECT was a real threat then God would have inspired such to be specifically and repeatedly warned of “especially” in the OT! But, of course, it’s not!

But of course, Hell is a sacred cow for much of Christendom, a doctrine that one pampers and adorns like the Hindus do their sacred cows. To even question (much less speak convincingly against) the reality of Hell is a serious offense, one that will get you verbally flogged and excommunicated - regardless of your evident love for God, His Word, and people!

Of course, many on this site can attest to the irrational and mean-spirited attacks that come from Christians when their sacred cows are challenged, much less slaughtered!

#13

Amen! Very much the same journey that I have travelled. My journey began when I was willing to step out of “Religion” and all the “Traditions of men” and simply seek Truth without all the bells and whistle :open_mouth:

#14

Hillel was not a Pharisee, was he? I thought that the Pharisees are of the Shammai school? Your sources seem to say that some did believe in an unending punishment or annihilation- why would you publish this as backink up your assertion: "…there is evidence that they, the Pharisees, thought of it primarily as a place of fiery judgment and remedial punishment in the afterlife, an encounter with the fire of truth that purges one of evil…

\Where do you get that the Pharisees primarily thought of it as remedial?

#15

Hillel and Shammai were both Pharisees. They were contemporaries and one was the Head of the Sanhedrin (Hillel, I think) and the other was the President (Shammai, if memory serves me correctly). Both the schools of Shammai and Hillel are Pharisaic schools of thought. Hillel was considered the more gentle, kind, and gracious of the two. It’s an interesting study.

Concerning their beliefs, as noted, they believed that for most people who went there, Gehenna was a place of Remedial punishment. There was also argument as to what happened to the most wicked of people, annihilation or indefinitely long torment (as long as the Lord saw fit). Jesus, in warning to not fear those who can only destroy the body but not the soul, and instead notes that one should fear Him who can destroy body and soul in Gehenna seems to indicate that destruction, annihilation is the worst punishment of the wicked that God would even consider. But of course, Jesus isn’t saying that any are definitely going to be annihilated, but that such would be the worst punishment the Lord would consider.

Jesus, in Mark 9:49, after warning of Gehenna in hyperbolic language, says that we shall all be salted by fire, which seems to me to indicate that Gehenna has a purgative, redemptive purpose. And that we shall all have some things we need purified from.

#16

Maybe some will be purged, some destroyed? Perhaps if they refuse remedial punishment they are deleted.

#17

In response to URPilgrim. Who is making doctrine? Sherman is doing the same what he accuses others of doing, making assumptions. He is not the only one to make this claim infact I have heard unbelievers make the same case. His view has been tirelessly explained and dismissed. Obviously he doesn’t accept the explanation and that is his right.

#18

Aren’t you doin the same thing (making assumptions)? Where is your point by point refutation?

#19

This is how I know that this is your flesh talking rather than your spirit. This is a post-modernist view. I have heard feminists say the same about men or blacks talk about the “the establishment” not to mention it is overly simplified straw mans and dare I say, “mean spirited”

#20

That I am assuming what Sherman is assuming is that others are assuming?

Won’t refute. Diametrically opposed points of view (gospel) that will never meet. I will make observations here and there.