The Evangelical Universalist Forum

For those who were Anni but are now UR

Hello all,

I am a Christian who is Arminian and Annihilationist in regards to salvation. However, I really want UR to be true (because I know that God does-- He wants everyone to be saved, see 1 Timothy 2:3-4).

If you were an Annihilationist but you later came to believe in UR, why? (Scriptural, philosophical, theological reasons). Cindy Skillman-- I remember reading that you were Anni for about a year before moving onto UR… what made you change your view?

I really appreciate it. Thank you!

God bless, Warren Conrad

Interested to see this thread run, too, though I can’t directly participate: as much of a Lewisian as I was, I don’t know that I ever quiiiiiiite accepted annihilation: his scriptural grounds, as he very partially presented them, seemed weak to me compared to ECT (I don’t mean to compare this with dedicated anni apologists like Mr. Fudge for example) – though not nearly as weak as his position, outside his fiction, that God doesn’t act to punish anyone post-mortem – and his metaphysical arguments for it didn’t seem to apply any differently than arguments for ECT, with which he naturally overlapped.

I did (and still do) think his solution proposed in The Problem of Pain for combining ECT and anni was ingenious: it’s ECT from the perspective of God and the sinner, but anni from the perspective of anyone continuing along the timeline past the final destruction of the sinner. But I was increasingly-less-vaguely bothered by how he had to reverse his own prior argument about how we should expect God to not give up on us but rather to persist competently to victory, in order to argue for God giving up on some people eventually. :wink:

Anyway, that isn’t at all the same as someone going from anni to Kath, so I can’t offer any useful experiential testimony there; only some squints from someone who passed by close to anni and generally respected the idea (mainly thanks to Lewis). :slight_smile:

(Which doesn’t mean I haven’t researched annihilation a lot since then; I only mean I didn’t get to Christian universalism from ‘extra-conditional immortality’ so to speak. :laughing: )

Sorry, Warren

I saw this and intended to reply later when I had more time and then completely forgot. I only just now remembered. Probably the best thing for me to do to answer your question would be to point you to my blog. Just keep in mind that these posts were written three years ago and my views have continued to grow, so I’m not sure whether I’d still agree with myself on everything – but this is where I was at the time. There are five posts, but I do try to keep them short. :wink: A Personal Odyssey

Let me know what you think. :slight_smile:

Many Christian Universalists have believed in Annihilationism for awhile after rejecting Infernalism and before embracing Universalism. I jumped straight from Infernalism to Universalism. However, if not for all the passages that affirm UR I’d believe in Annihilationism. Studying and meditating upon the classic UR passages though compelled me to have faith in Jesus to save all, even me, to save everyone, especially we who believe. Studying and meditating upon Rom.5.18, Col.1.20, Phil.2.8-9, etc. was/is very compelling for me in favor of UR. I found them to be so compelling that I decided to study the Hell passages to reaffirm my belief in Hell. Surprisingly and disturbingly, when I studied the Hell passages/words in the Hebrew and Greek text though, what I though was rock solid turned out to be nothing but sand. This left me with nothing to do but believe that Jesus truly is savior of all.

And as I’ve read Annihilationist material, I’ve found they spend tremendous effort understanding the judgment and hell passages, and very little effort understanding the UR passages, often rarely even mentioning them. And if not for the UR passages, I’d too believe in Anni.

I typed a reply on my phone, but it somehow didn’t post. very annoying!

Basically i went from Infernalist to Anni when i had it demonstrated to me that the Bible never actually promises in any unambiguous way an eternal hell of torment. i was chatting with a UR-friendly Anni friend, and i think we were discussing Love Wins. He actually told me that i ought to skip that and read The Evangelical Universalist, and told me that Universalists had some really good arguments. I read it, and realised that all my life i’d wanted to believe UR, but that i hadn’t realised it was an option. I read verses such as the ones where God is all in all, where He doesn’t want anyone to perish or be lost, and had thought for years that hell might not have many or even any in it. Anni temporarily satisfied what i thought were the Bible’s statements about permanent punishment, but then when i realised that just as ECT couldn’t be condoned Scripturally, so could not any form of permanent punishment including Anni, because nowhere does the Bible unambiguously claim punishment is eternal as we today understand it. Age-enduring, sure…but not eternal.
Also, i realised that anything less than UR is a less than complete victory for God, who is the ultimate victor, and the most persuasive lover in the Universe.

If you were an Annihilationist but you later came to believe in UR, why? (Scriptural, philosophical, theological reasons). Cindy Skillman-- I remember reading that you were Anni for about a year before moving onto UR… what made you change your view?

Technically i’m on the fence because i believe in postmortem salvation but i’m not positive everyone will be. If any are not i believe they will be zapped and gone.
What got me thinking was finding out the various greek words for judgment all allow for restoration with God and in fact seem to allude to it as a likely scenario. Later i found out that eternal really means age-abiding and once this became clear then that opens the door to any possibility. What keeps my toe on the fence is verses like “it would be better for you if you were never born.” Could be hyperbole or another bad translation but there are several others too.
The strongest factor for UR is that it is God’s will and that very well may override any other considerations.

I’ll give you my version, Warren, as briefly as I can. Though I don’t know how solidly, I suppose I was in the Anni camp in some sense for a year or two, as I finally allowed myself to question the last vestiges of what I had inherited theologically. It was also that inheritance which, at irregular intervals, whispered to me, “Well you know, some have to be destroyed, at the very least,” and so ensured that I would stay in the Anni pit-stop for a while longer. Early exposure to C. S. Lewis helped that; N. T. Wright encouraged it. But at some point I found myself saying I believed either God destroyed some, or he saved all. I was certainly done with ECT.

I found myself there for at least two reasons. One, I kept seeing overt, implied, or “closet” universalists emerging everywhere - people I respected and loved, some living and some now fully living. Two examples from the literary world were George MacDonald and Jacques Ellul. I also became aware of the numbers, or possible numbers, of contemporary UR adherents, and of adherents from the historic Church, including some Church Fathers. It became “okay” to think that way.

The second reason was a set of philosophical propositions, mostly brought to a head by reading MacDonald. I could not get around these and other arguments (or at least the germs of them) from his pen: if God must destroy some, then he is not Lord of all, and he has been eternally defeated; true atonement requires that there shall be a making up for all sin, and that requires that the sinner must be involved in the atoning process - in other words, only God-in-me can make restitution for the wrongs I have done to others, and vice versa; God is one (I’m not talking about divine monism here - I am a Trinitarian), or he is evil - justice and mercy, love and wrath, must be the same thing; “immortality” is not a thing conditioned upon a second birth, but upon the first one - that is, our source: we are made not from nothing, but from God, and since from God, then the enduring breath/Spirit of God must be in every child formed in his image; death is really nothing, and cannot be any kind of hindrance to God in his saving work (neither, I would now say, can it be a hindrance to his perfected saints). Even if you feel no weight from these arguments, you can at least, I’m sure, see how they would unsettle someone who did.

And so that is where I found myself when the final straw was laid upon my already overburdened intellectual back. That “final straw” was a progressive letting go of all remaining ECT and Anni presuppositions, with the help, mostly, of Baxter Kruger, et al, at Perichoresis, and Peter Hiett of the Sanctuary Downtown in Denver (both were apparently influenced by Barth, like yourself). Trey Tomeny has already linked you to Hiett’s sermons, but I would echo everything he said about them. I owe Peter a great debt for all the hurdles he helped me finally jump. Listening to him online has especially helped me to mentally reconcile many things, for example:

  1. The absurd and unending debate between Calv. and Armi. I now have no trouble believing that God is all-Love, and all-powerful, and therefore will do all things that Love would and must do. I have no trouble with God “violating” my supposed “free will,” because if he doesn’t, somebody sure as hell better, or I’m in real trouble. My will is the problem, and it won’t be fixed by me, to all eternity. (On a related note, if you think the will only has to make one good choice for God - derisively labeled by critics, “decisional regeneration” - then perhaps my will can muster that…but I doubt it.) I have come to see - and this was a major part of the shift for me - not just intellectually, but as an undeniable personal fact that continually rears up and reminds me of itself, that I don’t have a leg to stand on before God, compared to anyone you like. I have actually come to believe, perhaps paradoxically, that it is harder to prove anyone will be saved, than that everyone will.

  2. My own inability ever to go back to an Inerrantist position with regard to Scripture, and, in tension with this, my residual-from-my-upbringing love for the Bible and inability to arbitrarily chuck something I may not like on its pages. I have been able to fondly reclaim many passages and themes I once dismissed despairingly. I can now embrace those once-rejected words with a love and appreciation founded on better principles than before. I can see a deeper significance than I had dared dream of. One quick example might help, and it relates to the possibility of annihilation specifically. Bearing in mind that it’s been 12 years since I studied these things in an academic setting, and I have only the most cursory understanding of Koine Greek (but at the same time, may I mention the cultural and literary distance of 2,000 years, the fog of manuscript variants, the likelihood that Jesus taught in Aramaic, etc.), here is the conclusion I came to about the latter half of Matthew 10. In v. 28, the Greek words for “destroy” and “soul” (as they are usually rendered) are the same as “lose” and “life” in 39 (also in 16:25, btw; that is, psyche and the apoles- verb stem). This must surely change the meaning from what we customarily assume, no? To be accurate, wouldn’t we have to translate 39 as “whoever destroys his soul for my sake,” or 28 as “him who can lose your life and body in Gehenna”? Kind of makes it sound like “fear” in 28 isn’t what we immediately think it is, and that we shouldn’t fear others because they won’t help us - help us, that is, to destroy the lives/souls that we have constructed, the lives we mistakenly think are our own, the false selves in God’s world. God will help us (at all necessary cost to himself and us - thus our rightful fear) by destroying that life, either with our willing cooperation, or our desperate final consent.

And so, I’ve surrendered, finally, to the conclusion that, for me, seems inescapable. Caleb Fogg linked an essay by Richard Beck for you. I find myself in full assent to what Mr. Beck said, if I may paraphrase: UR is the only “theory” that makes sense of creation and existence itself, and God’s purposes for it, and what we know of the past, and what we see around us now, and what we believe about the future, and on and on…

Hope this has helped you somehow. God’s Peace.

And one thing I forgot to mention (then I’m done, I promise!), also in regard to troubling Bible passages: my subconscious default seemed to be, “The ECT/Anni passages are a given, yet the UR passages could be true, but we can’t be certain.” Why did only the UR texts have to justify themselves? I’m now convinced it was because of my own ecclesiastical conditioning. I was not dealing even-handedly with the Scripture. At some point I woke up and said to myself, “Why can’t both groups be true?” Why can’t God both destroy and remake/reconcile? What if God kills anything/anyone (including you and me and anyone else who thinks they’re already on safe ground) only in order to raise it/them to a new and higher order of life (whether that be an instantaneous, or a quite lengthy, process as we perceive it, confined to temporality)? I now think, with the prompting of others, that you can make a solid biblical and theological case for just such a mode of action on God’s part.

:smiley:

Thank you for your responses, everyone!

Ok, I’ve collected all the answers to the question of “Why would someone move from Annihilationism to Universalism?”
I will post them in groups: Scriptural, Theological and Historical/Emotional

Scriptural:
• Jn. 12:32, 47
• Eph. 1:8-10
• Phil. 2:10-11
• 1 Tim. 4:10
• Tit. 2:11
• 2 Samuel 14:14
• Psalms 22:27-29
• Psalms 65:2
• Isaiah 25:6-8
• Isaiah 45:22-23
• Lamentations 3:31-32
• Zephaniah 3:8-9
• Luke 23:34
• Acts 3:20-21
• Romans 5:12-19
• Romans 14:11
• 1 Corinthians 15:21-26
• 2 Corinthians 5:19
• Colossians 1:15-20
• 1 John 2:2
• And more
(That is quite a lot, isn’t it?)

Also that eternal could oftentimes be translated as age-abiding

Theological:

God’s will is that all be saved and no human could ever trump His will
The love of God
The goodness of God
The mystery of God
The grace of God
The patience of God
The persuasiveness of God
The power (or ability) of God
Universalism represents the greatest victory for God (over against ECT and Anni)
God’s punishments are remedial and corrective.
The sacrifice of Christ on the cross was so efficacious it will ransom all people from the power of Satan and death.

Historical: Church Fathers and respectable contemporary theologians were/are open to universalism, including Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, George MacDonald, Karl Barth, much of Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy etc.

Emotional: Perhaps not the best type of argument, but there is something to be said about the occasional reliability of human emotions.

When I was thinking about this issue, I typed this into my word document:

I really want universalism to be true. So do many other Christians. Why do we want it so bad if it isn’t true? If I want it this bad, how must God feel? He is much more loving than we are, so if we are this cut up inside about it, imagine how He must feel? And then if Annihilation is true than He doesn’t get what He wants?

Catherine, another boarder on the Forum, also says “I pray with every cell in my body that it’s true…” and “* that some would be lost, even to annihilation! No…”

Why do we feel these emotions if they will never be fulfilled?

A quote from C.S. Lewis:
“The Christian says, 'Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for those desires exists. A baby feels hunger: well, there is such a thing as food. A duckling wants to swim: well, there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire: well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.”

Perhaps we could add, “If we feel the intense and unfading desire that all be saved, then the satisfaction for that desire must exist.”*

To theological I would add (aside from some specially trinitarian points):

The justice of God – we are called by God to live in justice beyond sin, so would God’s justice be best fulfilled by being defeated by, or by authoritatively locking people into, final injustice?

The glory of God – does God best glorify Himself, or the Father, Son or Spirit best glorify each other, by being unable to, or choosing not to, bring those who do not glorify God to glorify God?

The honor of God – Jesus says the goal of His just judgment is to bring people to honor the Father and the Son, so how best does God bring about this honoring? By failing to, or choosing not to, bring those who dishonor God to honor God (and justice)?

Obviously those three are linked, but the principles can be applied in other ways. (The freedom of God, the love of God, etc.)

Relatedly again,

The covenant of God – the Father and the Son have promised each other to bring about the righteousness of all of Abraham’s descendents, which by virtue of the Incarnation (not even counting trinitarian emphases about this) includes all rational creatures created by the Son. The Son even goes to the cross to keep His side of that covenant. How best does the Father and Son keep that covenant with each other?

Obviously I cannot speak to these things as someone who went from anni to UR, but so long as we’re talking about general evidence and arguments against some kind of hopeless punishment or fate (rather than against anni specifically)… :slight_smile:

Regarding scriptural references, the list you have here is good, but there are many, many, many more. For a book full of scriptural references, go to Hope Beyond Hell. If you want the book in a .mobi file for your Kindle, you can get it free at Amazon. amazon.com/Hope-Beyond-Right … eyond+hell

And MacD probably knew the context of that scriptural allusion (about God’s ways and thoughts being higher) affirmed God saving punished rebels from their sins rather than abandoning them!

MacD and/or Lewis (who was certainly following MacD on this generally speaking anyway) elsewhere went on to say that we should only freeze and suffocate in the cold at the top of those mountains if we don’t allow God to grow our wings so we can fly off the mountain even higher.

And still shall we find the depth of God’s sapphire above us, and the heavens higher than the Earth!

(Lewis takes this concept very far in the mystical revelation imagery at the end of Perelandra.)