The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free Will and Analogical Knowledge of God

Evangelical Universalism
#1

I know there are many on this board who are Universalists who nevertheless believe that, at least for a time, God grants his creatures libertarian free will. The sticking point though – and I feel this very strongly – is this: if God is going to “do away” with free will at some point and make everyone blessed and unable to sin or even be tempted to sin; if, indeed, he is going to remove all pain of every kind, why did he give us free will to begin with?

Is it possible to suppose that he gave it to us to allow us to experience a part of his nature that would be otherwise impossible?

Most are familiar with the doctrine that we can know God’s attributes by analogy. We see his effects in creation and can thus extrapolate to sort of know what he is like. Here is my question: how could we ever know God as the “personal cause of love” if we never experienced a) personhood, or b) true causative power?

In other words, if we were not self conscious, and if we did not possess libertarian free will, at least for a time, with respect to the ability to cause love or not cause love, would it be possible for us to know God as a personal cause of love? I can imagine us having LFW without being able to sin and still being persons - I could still be free to choose even if all my options were good - but I’m not sure I can conceive of having “true causative power” with respect to actually loving or not loving, unless I had the power to either love or not love. I could have the choice between buying my wife a ring or a necklace and still be perfectly free, but only with respect to how I displayed a love I already had. Not with respect to being the cause of that love itself.

I’m wondering what others think of applying the idea of analogical knowledge of God to our free willed choices of love.

#2

I believe in universal reconciliation of all people to God and ALSO believe that man was created in God’s image, chiefly in the possession of libertarian free will. There is no necessity for believers in UR to think that God must do away with free will in order to reconcile everyone to Himself.

I am not sure about being “unable” to sin. God created angels with free will, and it seems that some of them rebelled and sinned.
Have they now lost their free will so as not to be able to repent? Origen didn’t think so; he thought that the last one to repent would be the devil himself. Did God remove the free will of the angels who didn’t rebel, so that now they CANNOT sin? Again, I don’t think so.

But it may be that the angels who did not sin are so fixed in their decision to be faithful to their master, and that the saints after their resurrection will be so fixed in their decision, that neither group will sin because of their nature. I don’t think the reason is that God has removed their free will, but that their natures are such that sin is abhorrent to them.

God Himself has free will to a greater extent than anyone, doesn’t He? Yet, the scripture states that God cannot lie (Titus 1:2 NKJV). Does that mean that He doesn’t have the freedom to lie? No, it means that He doesn’t have the character to lie.

#3

Pretty much what Paidon said.

I don’t think that universalism = removal of freewill. Though I do accept that there are inbuilt limitations to the freewill we currently possess ( I cannot ‘disbelieve’ logic when it’s understood; I cannot imagine a new colour; I cannot resist falling in love with God forever).

Freewill means that at least sometimes I choose x, but could have chosen y. I will still have this capacity in heaven. I will not sin because I won’t want to (ever), nor will I be pressured to (by anything), and I’ll have the capacity to easily refrain. Remember sin is bondage and disease and blindness and irrationality. In heaven I’ll be healed and free. And there will be zero temptation, internal or external.

There might, however, still be moral growth. No sin doesn’t equal perfection like God. There is a huge spectrum of virtue, ranging from simply not sinning all the way to total sacrificial self-giving in every situation. If I give to the poor I am not sinning and I’m being virtuous. But if I give everything I am more virtuous. In heaven we will make freewill moral choices and develop towards perfection - assuming it isn’t instant.

Why aren’t we sinless yet free right now? We need a change of nature and a change of environment: the current ones are corrupted. How and why the corruption? FWD + Cosmic Warfare.

#4

1 Cor 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

I am old and fat and have bad eyesight and few remaining teeth. That’s because I wear a body that wears out and doesn’t always understand. As a result I sometimes use free will to do things which are wrong- twenty minutes ago I forgot to make my wife a cup of coffee that I had promised.

But in the resurrection I shall have a body without these problems. I shall know perfectly and not make mistakes. I shall have free will and exercise it perfectly.

This will come in handy when judging angels.

It’s too easy to think of the world to come in terms of what we shall lose. I’d rather understand this life as an officer training exercise to help me get ready to do real things in the next.

#5

Hi Chris,

I agree with this and your thoughts are very similar to Hick’s argument for the FWD in Evil and the Love of God. I think his argument very nicely shows that God could create beings with free-will who never do evil but not that they would be guaranteed to* freely *respond to Him in genuine trust and love.

Now, does God “do away with” LFW at some point? I’m not sure he does completely. One thing that I was reminded of during the “inevitability of sin” discussion is that we do know what we will be like when perfected in the example of Christ.

With Jesus as an example, I think He did have LFW at least for non-moral choices such as what to wear, what to eat, preferences for the company of certain people etc. In the case of moral choices, Jesus submitted his will to that of the Father. “Not my will but Thine be done”. So how do we get or does God get us to the point where we freely submit our will to His for moral decisions without exception? Perhaps God offers us a free-will choice to once and for all submit our will to his for these moral choices? Perhaps those who choose not to submit their will continue to learn why they would want to submit their will, why it is a glorious and good thing and indeed they eventually “fall in love” with God and submit when the choice is offered again. Is that how we are eventually confirmed into sinlessness? I don’t know, but it seems possible. Thoughts?

Steve

#6

Makes sense to me, alec :slight_smile:

#7

Thanks, Pog. :slight_smile:

I might modify what I said and say we’d submit to God’s will in any choice or decision where he would rather have us do one thing rather than the other, even if it’s not a classical moral choice.

Steve