The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free Will, Hell and infant salvation

Evangelical Universalism
#1

This is a real contradiction. Now I am talking here about those Christians who hold to notions of free will and the so-called “age of accountability” doctrine.

So babies and young children who die, are not damned to hell. They are not capable of knowing right from wrong, therefore they are innocent of any sin and go straight to heaven if they die. But wait! Don’t these same Christians tell us that “everyone has a choice” in regards to salvation? Further, that we are given that choice because God respects us too much to force salvation on us, or as it is often put, “God doesn’t want robots”? So if not having “free will” makes one like a “robot”, then what about infants who die? They didn’t make a free will decision; are they little robots in heaven?

How can free will be so damn important if babies are whooshed into heaven without it?

#2

Ewwww! Creepy creepy baby picture.

I guess it depends on your definition of free will. I would say a baby has a degree of free will, to cry, to sleep, to suckle. I’ve never yet managed to force a baby in my care to do anything :astonished: But they lack sufficient comprehension skills as yet to understand the ramifications of actions. But there is still some relationship with the Father there, in my opinion only :wink: Like a little child might not understand how bonding works, evolutionary need to protect our offspring, the reason they exist or why they are cared for by this larger adult called mummy. What they do know is that when something hurts and they scream “mummy!”, this bigger person is instantly there, she will care for them even if the hurts are said child’s fault.

I tend to view all relationships to God in a relational sense, rather than a logistical one. I see scripture using different earthly relationships to mirror God’s interaction with his creatures, thus I think we have a template for how it ‘works’ with God, painted upon our own nature.

So for me, the free will question is far too simplified by many people; either into absolute free will to choose hell forever, or into a place where God is directly responsible for all our actions. I reckon it’s much more complicated and interesting than that. My own simple analogy sees God as our good father, who allows us freedom to learn and grow but at times intervenes when we try to place our hand on the stove. But occasionally, when the leash has been let out far enough, the child might still get burned.

This is why I’m universalist. God the Father is drawing His children to Himself, allowing them to grow into some semblance of autonomy. But I don’t believe ultimately this good father will allow any of His children to make irrevocable decisions about hellfire. He’s a good Father. I swear we find more of The Spirit of God in the biblical imagery of Him, rather than sometimes in the words themselves.

So yes, I find total free will theists inconsistent. But I also find reformed thinking illogical too

#3

agreed. i think we’re given a measure of free will in most situations, and consequences occur based on those decisions. maybe God literally judges our choices in these cases, or maybe He allows consequences to happen (i’ve heard both argued).
i don’t feel any different in myself to when i was quite young, except that i have more knowledge and experience now (and thus can judge potential consequences better, i hope). but i’ve always had this measure of choice, and i think that regardless of the amount you have, the choices you make are important.

as to babies getting swept into heaven in contrast to adults…well i’m of the opinion that some stuff needs sorting out on the way to heaven, more if we’re adult because we have more choice, more sin, more everything to sort through. so in that sense we’re all “wooshed” into heaven, but stuff gets cleaned off or ironed out on the way. that could take a while for some (me), but it’s as inevitable for adults as it is for babies.

to God, we’re all children. a mere difference of a few years more or less in age isn’t going to change that for Him.

#4

There are many things about the traditional doctrine that just doesn’t make sense, and this is one of them. Another related question is that if all children who die make it heaven then killing one’s children before the are accountable would be the loving thing to do so as ensure them going to heaven.

#5

precisely!

if states of innocence, such as a lack of knowledge of Christ for those who’ve never heard the gospel, or that of children, guarantee salvation…growing up past a certain age or preaching to those who’ve never heard would be more or less guaranteeing them damnation…so where does the great commission make sense there?

#6

Yep. Another illogical common belief related to hell is that if a person never has a chance to recieve Christ and they die, then they are not held accountable for such and possibly make it into heaven. If that was the case then it seems that it would be better to not tell people of Christ that way they would not be responsible for such knowledge.

#7

Exactly my thoughts, Jael.

Babies, while they aren’t coerced into certain behaviors by anyone, nevertheless have very little free will. They can’t decide what to have for dinner, what to do with their time, even what they believe about a given subject – they don’t even know any subjects barring discomfort/displeasure and pleasure/comfort. So babies, while they cannot be commanded, also cannot command anything in their lives. They can beg and plead, and if they have parents who care, their insistent demands will be quickly met – but if they’re not, what is the baby going to do about that?

I think that our development as we live this life, growing from complete control by others (infancy) through the increasing autonomy of childhood, through (hopefully) self-control as responsible adults, into complete surrender to our Father’s will for us, is (maybe paradoxically) a growth INTO free will. We start out as slaves to sin, and when we die to this world, we begin our trek into freedom from sin and toward slavery to righteousness (which is, disintuitively enough, freedom, period).

Abba wants us free, but we have to grow into that. He isn’t withholding freedom; He’s guiding us into it.

Love, Cindy

#8

aye, it’s madness i tell ye!
keep shtum and let people slip into heaven without any knowledge…seems happier for everyone, and less work for us :unamused:

OR, liberate people with the knowledge that they are loved, that nothing can separate them from that love…not even rejection, and that God can and will heal all wounds and free us from the sin that binds us.