The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free-will is a myth

Theology
#61

They’re not as bad as they use to be. It use to be real bad. It kept me in bondage for along time. They use to always talk bad about medication. I was so paranoid and self-conscious I couldn’t look anybody in the eye or communicate with them. I couldn’t relate. It’s like the fears just kept building and building until I had my psychotic break. It happened when I got into an argument with Dr. Hugh Ross on the radio. I snapped and I just went off and started preaching about everything from time to eternity. When I got off the phone my mind was racing a thousand miles an hour. I couldn’t stop thinking about what I said to him on the radio. I was up for three days. I would pace the floor and then get in the shower and then pace the floor and then get in the shower again over and over. I finally went over to the radio and turned it on. It seemed as though the people on the radio were repeating what I had said to Dr. Ross. I thought I had started a revival. It freaked me out so I turned the radio off and went and laid down. My mind was spinning. It’s like I could see in my mind all these golden beams of light with the word of God flowing through them. I got up and turned the radio on and a person said: “this Christian could be in serious danger.” I thought they were talking about me. I turned the radio off and my grandma came in the room. I tried to tell her what was going on. And then she mentioned something about George Bush being worried about the time. So I thought this revival has gotten all the way to George Bush. Pretty soon the Government was coming after me. I called my mom and told her the Government was coming after me and she needed to come get me. She came got me and took me to the hospital where they diagnosed me. I can’t really remember much at the hospital. I couldn’t make much sense when I talked. If you want to know how I arrived at my belief in God today here it is:

experience
studying arguments for and against God’s existence
Faith
cognitive behavioral therapy
reading
creative arts therapy
psychotherapy
medication
AA/NA meetings
The twelve steps

I’m doing the best I ever have my entire life.

#62

Well done, Michael, keep up the good work.

Do you think an initial trauma had triggered these psychological responses, or was it building up over a period of time? What part did alcohol play in your *wild turkey *experience?

#63

I had been sober for awhile. For me it’s triggered by anxiety. That’s why I try to stay away from power driven argument as much as possible. I have a lot more freedom that way. Like now. My mind is clear. But if I let it it will spin out of control. Thats why I take my meds every day.

#64

Anxiety does nasty things to us. It is a bug, in a way, that seeks to take over. Depression, boredom, anxiety, etc, all are negative conditions that seek to dominate the organism. I had worked on removing these bugs. They are like a pathogen or bacteria which takes over the host. I hope you hace success with these conditions.

Steve

#65

That was an even more effective quote from Justin Martyr, Stef!
Here are some more quotes from second century Christian writers and later.

130-200 AD : Irenaeus
“This expression, ‘How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not,’ set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free (agent) from the beginning, possessing his own soul to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God…And in man as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice…If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things and to abstain from others?” (Against Heresies XXXVII )

150-190 AD : Athenagoras
“men…have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice (for you would not either honor the good or punish the bad; unless vice and virtue were in their own power, and some are diligent in the matters entrusted to them, and others faithless)…”(Embassy for Christians XXIV )

150-200 AD : Clement of Alexandria
“Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary.” (Miscellanies, book 1, ch.17)

154-222 AD : Bardaisan of Syria
“How is it that God did not so make us that we should not sin and incur condemnation? —if man had been made so, he would not have belonged to himself but would have been the instrument of him that moved him…And how in that case, would man differ from a harp, on which another plays; or from a ship, which another guides: where the praise and the blame reside in the hand of the performer or the steersman…they being only instruments made for the use of him in whom is the skill? But God, in His benignity, chose not so to make man; but by freedom He exalted him above many of His creatures.” (Fragments )

185-254 AD : Origin
“This also is clearly defined in the teaching of the church that every rational soul is possessed of free-will and volition.” (De Principiis, Preface )

185-254 AD : Origen
“There are, indeed, innumerable passages in the Scriptures which establish with exceeding clearness the existence of freedom of will.” (De Principiis, Book 3, ch.1 )

250-300 AD : Archelaus
“There can be no doubt that every individual, in using his own proper power of will, may shape his course in whatever direction he chooses.” (Disputation with Manes, secs.32,33 )

260-315 AD : Methodius
“Those [pagans] who decide that man does not have free will, but say that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate, are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils.” (The Banquet of the Ten Virgins, discourse 8, chapter 16 )

312-386 AD : Cyril of Jerusalem
“The soul is self-governed: and though the Devil can suggest, he has not the power to compel against the will. He pictures to thee the thought of fornication: if thou wilt, thou rejectest. For if thou wert a fornicator by necessity then for what cause did God prepare hell? If thou wert a doer of righteousness by nature and not by will, wherefore did God prepare crowns of ineffable glory? The sheep is gentle, but never was it crowned for its gentleness; since its gentle quality belongs to it not from choice but by nature.” (Lecture IV 18 )

347-407 AD : John Chrysostom
“All is in God’s power, but so that our free-will is not lost…it depends therefore on us and on Him. We must first choose the good, and then He adds what belongs to Him. He does not precede our willing, that our free-will may not suffer. But when we have chosen, then He affords us much help…It is ours to choose beforehand and to will, but God’s to perfect and bring to the end.” (On Hebrews, Homily 12 )

#66

That is an excellent treasury of ECF quotes. Sometimes it is hard to find subjects that there is an overwhelmingly unanimous accord. This subject is one of them.

#67

We do not make ourselves into Christ adoring people. We do not muster enough willpower to break the bondages that our hearts are in. All that is a precious gift from God. He does however use means to bring repentance about. Repentance is a miracle. We see both the means and the miracle in 2 Timothy 2:24-26:

That’s the means. Now the miracle:

We teach and we love but God grants repentance. Christ has become the “Yes” to all God’s promises. Everything promised by the prophets has been purchased for us infallibly by Christ. These promises include:

These are promises of enablement that assure us that God will do for us what we cannot do for ourselves. We need a new heart to delight in God. And this is what God gives us by His regenerating grace.

#68

It seems both Joshua and Paul believed in the ability to choose. That’s all free will is. It isn’t the ability to do whatever one wants.

#69

God places a responsibility on us to act. This means we are free to act or not act, otherwise the following verses are meaningless.

Revelation 2:5

**Revelation 3:19 **

Revelation 18:4

#70

Paiodon

Yes, but as I showed above with many scriptures fallen man always chooses against God because of his corrupt desires and fallen nature. Just as it is impossible for God to sin because of His holy nature. He still chooses though. Faith is a gift.

#71

I don’t believe this for a second. Of course you are responsible!

Every single human on earth has strengths and weaknesses; we cannot use that as a cop-out. Someone who is predisposed to something still has the responsibility to restrain their actions. Many pedaphiles, for instance, were once abused themselves. That does not give them a free ticket to commit pedaphilia. I grew up with alcohol addiction is my blood stream, along with mental disorders passed down through both parents, and violence, rape and drug-use - that is my family heritage! This is not an excuse for me, and it is not an excuse for you. My siblings use this as an excuse, and they are miserable people addicted to vice. I was given the same strengths and weaknesses - in fact, I was the weaker one.

We all make choices in our lives, and I personally find it strange that people turn around and blame their bad choices on God or genes. I sympathize with your sicknesses, but they do not give you a green light that removes personal responsibility or accountability. Just like giving up smoking… it is a choice. You cannot blame faulty genes for a lack of self-control.

#72

Well, I’ve said this before but here it is again:

While I reject “free will” I believe in human responsibility. All humans are free agents in the sense that they make their own decisions about what they will do, choosing as they please according to their desires and thoughts. When humans make it to heaven they will have a completely new nature with all sin and sinful desires removed from their hearts. They will be free from sin. Because they have new natures they will be like God and it will be impossible for them to sin. They still choose what they want but because all sin is removed from their hearts they always want to do the right thing. This is true freedom. They are slaves to righteousness but responsible agents.

#73

This fairytale ending does nothing to address our accountability now, and accountability means we are free to choose another path if we so desire. Free-will is a necessity, otherwise God’s justice is flawed; because, according to you, God would be judging us on choices beyond our control. You believe humans are totally depraved and incapable of choosing Christ unless God had placed the desire inside us. How could God possibly judge people for choices that they were incapable of making? You have a vision of God that makes Him a cruel despot. No thanks!

#74

Well, I believe in restorative justice now. Grace in unmerited favor and never owed. God is never obligated to be gracious to those who don’t want to have anything to do with Him. As for hell. I trust God to deal with everybody fairly. My faith is in Him.

#75

I wonder if we could agree that the answer to the question of free-will is NOT an either-or answer, but rather a both-and answer?

Not: ‘either we have it or we don’t’, but: ‘In some ways we do and in some ways we don’t’

I think that approach will work to both honor scripture and experience.

Longitudinal studies of twins separated at birth show that the genetic component in behavior is amazingly strong over time. Not just things like , as adults, choosing obscure brands of cigarettes (many examples of things like that) but attitudes toward the world, that kind of thing, that we would think would be a product of nurture, not nature.
So I don’t think we can safely ignore that component, and the strengths and weaknesses that we inherit.

Likewise, in the just-as-real realm of true spirituality, scripture points at both the reality of choice AND the reality of our bondage.

I don’t think we can go too far astray by recognizing that God does demand that we make choices, and that has implications one direction; and also that our inability to fulfill some demands points to other implications. God is both creator and redeemer; we are in His image and yet we still need the Savior.

#76

Hi Dave,

Unfortunately, free-will is either true or false. You cannot dilute it to appease both camps. Furthermore, Michael has now arrived at the conclusion that, not only does he not have free-will, and that he is totally depraved (except where God changes him), he is also not accountable for his actions due to his chemistry:

This belief and attitude is counter-productive to faith, healing and growth.

I have a very close relative who had Multiple Personality Disorder (AKA, Dissociative Identity Disorder), a sickness which is far more profound and crippling than Bipolar Disorder, and I have been helping that person heal and be free from this disorder for over 10 years. Contradicting the beliefs of modern medicine, which said that the person would need to be on medication all of their life, and there was no escape from this disorder, there is only gradual improvements… My relative was radically altered from this crippling illness swiftly and decisively. I will not go into the details of how this change came about, but this hopeless case of broken chemistry is now working in the medical industry full-time, and has passed all assignments with High Distinctions.

I believe people need hope! This **Total Depravity **nonsense, along with the excuse: “I was born this way”, is a fallacy which is more crippling than the diagnosed illness. If this premise was not so diabolical I would just ignore it; but it is a destructive view that is debilitating and hopeless. Michael can believe whatever silly ideas he can imagine, but some of them need to be corrected for the benefit of others who are inclined to give up hope because they have no choices and no freedom and no hope. Rubbish!

#77

According to your theology all this person has to do is exercise free will and they can get rid of it. If not they should be severely punished. This is nonsense. I didn’t choose my genes or the place I was born or my upbringing. Your view contradicts science and the Bible. I have hope because I have a big God in whom I trust. Take your meds if you have them. Don’t listen to Steve with his tale.

#78

#79

Stef, I’m really not trying to appease ‘both sides’. It ain’t my job. We’re all big boys here.

And it can only BE either-or if and only if we have any agreement on what we are talking about. We throw around the words ‘free will’, and I have seen maybe a half-dozen different aspects?

The term is not univocal, and if we treat it as if it was, there will be no progress. There are subtleties that are not of the Devil.
I think because the term is ambiguous, the people in the discussion are saying good things, but are in danger of talking at shadows.

It’s real obvious reading this that the question is not whether a particular ‘view’ is scriptural or based on empirical evidence, it’s guys who have had troubled lives (to perhaps a bit larger degree than the general populace) arguing about how to handle their struggles. One takes the strong moral freedom view to cope with his ‘demons’, the other recognizes other factors and works at it that way.

You each can learn from the other. I’m learning from both of you.

$.02.

#80

I tend to see sin more as a sickness and disease that needs to be healed rather than a crime that needs to be punished. Granted, some are not as sick as others and have more freedom from their corrupt desires and false belief structures. But by God’s grace I think we can fight against these factors and gain more healing and freedom from the desires and emotions that drive us. This is why I’m more for restorative justice for people like me who struggle with mental illness. I’m more for dealing with the underlying causes that drive the behavior rather than simply punishing someone because they’ve done something wrong.

Over the last century there have been changes in how we understand punitive justice. What we have discovered is that such violence can cause severe psychological damage messing up a person’s healthy development. One of the places that still practices punitive justice is in the prison systems. Offenders who serve their time often go right back out and commit more crimes because the underlying causes of the behaviors are never dealt with. In fact, the violent environment of prison often ends up turning petty offenders into hardened criminals. People do not learn empathy by being shamed and dehumanized. Punishment and shame are not the solution. They are part of the problem. For people like me, punitive justice does not make things better. It makes things worse.

This is why Jesus came to remove the wrath of God. He overturned the whole penal/retribution model. There’s no more wrath from God because Christ has removed it from us at the cross. Two of the many things Christ was doing at the cross was forgiving our sins and removing God’s penal wrath from our vision. God’s wrath has been forever lifted off of our vision so that we can see and savor the spiritual beauty of Christ. It’s the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. This glory is first and foremost the humble love of Christ. We no longer have to worry about God’s penal wrath. All that is left now is mercy. God does discipline those He loves but this is just another form of His mercy. It’s the discipline of a loving Father. Jesus is our mercy seat where we can come to have our sins expiated and God’s wrath propitiated.

Where does that leave us with hell? I’m not sure about hell. I just trust God who is just. My faith is in Him to deal with everybody fairly.