The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free-will is a myth

Theology
#81

No, I do not believe this. I cannot just use free-will to decide to be a lawyer or doctor, as if snapping my fingers magic happens. No, but, with continual work and dedication you can eventually become a lawyer or doctor. Everything in life requires some effort, and those who crumble under the pressure do not receive the reward. It is the same for taking off weight if you are obese, or using will-power to distract from cigarettes, alcohol, depression and boredom, or using diet to combat cancer. Some do not commit to run the race. That is a matter of choice.

It is you who believe they will be severely punished, not me.

So what! A girl may complain that her genes never made her a boy. A short person may complain that there genes never made them tall. A black person may complain that there genes never made them white. You have a problem accepting reality. We all have predispositions to various things, that does not mean that we need to use negative emotions or addictions to register our complaint with God.

LOL. I don’t think so…

I have never told anyone to stop taking their meds. My relative decided naturally that the meds were no longer needed. It has now been many years that the meds have been abandoned, and this person now has a productive professional life with a success story that not many have a shared testimony. One reason is because they get brainwashed into thinking that “they were born that way”. I have reinforced that free-will is alive and well, and this person has taken this on board and made dramatic changes in their life. You are another story, Michael. You reinforce your negativity on a daily basis with faulty theology and faulty science. That is your choice. We all have free-will.

#82

Yep, that’s true. We can only say something is successful or unsuccessful from our own experience. If you try a diet and it doesn’t work for you, you can become cynical about it because of your personal experience. Conversely, if another person has tried the same diet, and it has worked for them, then they will sing praises of the diet because of their personal experience. Faith sometimes falls captive to our subjective experience.

Drink more KEFIR!!! (My wife gets a chuckle at my Kefir rants)

#83

I’d not even heard the word “Kefir” until a couple of weeks ago. :laughing:

#84

Bless you Cole - a rich blessing too :slight_smile:

#85

I think the resolution of this dispute may lie in the fact that, although we have free will, there are many strong influences which sway us.
These influences include heredity which Michael mentioned, as well as environmental influences—social pressure, habits, etc. Although these influences can pressure us to make choices which we might otherwise not make, they don’t CAUSE us to make those choices.

A criminal can hold a gun to your head and demand that you hand over your wallet. That’s a very strong influence. Your choice seems to be limited between handing over your wallet or dying, and most people will choose handing over their wallets. Yet such a person isn’t FORCED to hand over his wallet (although some would say he is). He still has the ability to choose. He can still choose NOT to hand over his wallet. This may result in his death, or it’s possible that it won’t. He doesn’t actually know for sure. Some might attempt a swift movement to strike the gunman’s arm with his own arm in order to dislodge the gun.

Michael, I would not go so far as to say that it is impossible for those who share in the resurrection after death, to sin. I won’t say you’re wrong. I’m not absolutely sure. Yet, I notice that even some of the angels who had served God, and who never inherited a sinful nature, yet chose to sin:

And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—(Jude 1:6)

By the way, that word translated “eternal” is not “aionios” (lasting) but “aidios” (everlasting).

#86

Paidion,

That’s because our choices have reasons behind them. Every decision I make has a reason or desire. We choose based on what we are and what we desire. This isn’t coercion because we are choosing what we want to do. While I reject “free will” I believe in human responsibility. All humans are free agents in the sense that they make their own decisions about what they will do, choosing as they please according to their desires and thoughts. When humans make it to heaven they will have a completely new nature with all sin and sinful desires removed from their hearts. They will be free from sin. Because they have new natures they will be like God and it will be impossible for them to sin. They still choose what they want but because all sin is removed from their hearts they always want to do the right thing. This is true freedom. They are slaves to righteousness but responsible agents.

#87

Thank you, Michael. I understand your reasoning. I’ve encountered it before. Although I see things a bit differently from you, I respect you for trying to make sense of these things. We are all seeking truth and reality together, and we need to be patient with one another in that search, and encourage one another even if we are not yet in agreement. I’m not directing this at you in particular, Michael. I have found most of your posts quite respectful.

#88

Cole,

People define free will in different ways. For example, I believe (from what I’ve seen him write) that Paidion and I agree on this issue. Yet I would say that I don’t believe in libertarian free will, and I believe I’ve seen him say that he does believe in libertarian free will. Still everything else I’ve seen him write in clarification of what, precisely, he believes this libertarian free will to BE and Not to be, leads me to believe that he and I agree on the substance of the free will question, even though we use different terminology.

I wonder if you would be willing to explain exactly what you mean by free will? It could well be the case that we agree on much of the definition, even if not on all of it.

Thanks,
Cindy

#89

Paidion,

Thanks. But it’s still true that all our choices are done for a reason. They have a reason or desire behind them. Otherwise they become random and indeterminate.

#90

Cindy,

All humans are free agents in the sense that they make their own decisions about what they will do, choosing as they please according to their desires and thoughts. Our choices have reasons behind them. Every decision I make has a reason or desire. We choose based on what we are and what we desire. This isn’t coercion because we are choosing what we want to do. If our decisions have no reason or desire behind them then they become random and indeterminate.

#91

It is a common view of determinists that if one doesn’t act from causal factors, then his actions are random. I think that is clearly false. Those are not the only two possibilities. They don’t account for ourselves being the source of our actions.The cause of one’s actions can be his own choice, which is neither externally caused or random (though it is indeterminate).

#92

I’m not saying our choices are externally caused.Our choices are determined by something within. Not by external factors. The choice is always done for a reason. There is a reason or desire behind it. Otherwise it becomes spontaneous. We are free to do what we want. The problem is that fallen man doesn’t want God. God is never obligated to give saving grace to someone that doesn’t want to have anything to do with Him. In regeneration God performs a miracle and gives us the desire for Himself. We then want to come to God. We are not forced. We are free to choose as we will.

#93

If we make our choices from a strictly neutral posture with no prior inclination or desire then we make choices for no reason. If we have no reason for our choices then they are utterly spontaneous. If they are utterly spontaneous then they have no moral significance. If a choice just happens with no rhyme or reason for it then it cannot be good or bad. Motives count too. Not just the decision. Every choice has a prior inclination, reason, or desire. If there is no prior reason then a choice cannot even be made. This is why it is impossible for God to sin. He has no desire for sin. He still chooses what He wants but He always wants to do good.

#94

I think this has been found to be true here yet again. That was very perceptive of you, Cindy. All of the definitions herein given are aptly describing free-will. Sometimes the wrapper doesn’t cover the gift.

#95

Free will is the ability to choose what we desire. The will always chooses according to its strongest inclination at the moment. Every choice is determined by internal desires or reasons. My inclinations and motives are shaped by numerous factors including my mind. If we make choices for no reason then they become arbitrary and a morally meaningless act. Fallen man has no desire for God. In other words he doesn’t want God. God is never obligated to give saving grace to someone who doesn’t want Him. Neither is He unjust for withholding saving grace from someone who doesn’t want to have anything to do with Him. In regeneration God performs a miracle and gives us the desire for Himself. We then want to come to God. We are not forced. We are free to choose as we will. There is no external force that coerces our will. We are determined by an internal motivation or desire. This is self-determination which is the essence of freedom.

If we make our choices from a strictly neutral posture with no prior inclination or desire then we make choices for no reason. If we have no reason for our choices then they are utterly spontaneous. If they are utterly spontaneous then they have no moral significance. If a choice just happens with no rhyme or reason for it then it cannot be good or bad. Motives count too. Not just the decision. Every choice has a prior inclination, reason, or desire. If there is no prior reason then a choice cannot even be made. This is why it is impossible for God to sin. He has no desire for sin. He still chooses what He wants but He always wants to do good.

#96

Michael, you are repeating the same comments over and over. This is no doubt remedial for you, but you can do so using different words each time, and importantly, by also recognizing that your previous strong statements about free-will were wrong. Repenting from error is important to your spiritual and psychological development.

#97

I haven’t made an error. What I’m saying here I’ve been saying from the beginning.

#98

No, Michael, you originally tried to impress upon us that free-will was a myth. Now, under your new definition of free-will, you have adopted free-will within your own criteria: “Free will is the ability to choose what we desire. The will always chooses according to its strongest inclination at the moment.” Either your first impressions were wrong, or your new definitions are wrong. You cannot be right twice while trying to proclaim two contrary beliefs. This is an example of why I and others had claimed you have contradicted yourself often. You are still doing it, yet you want people to believe that there is no contradiction. There is. You were wrong, but you are not humble enough to acknowledge it.

#99

Here’s what I said:

#100

Here’s the full version:

I go along with those Universalists who believe “free will” as you understand it is a myth.