The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Then in that view there is no future “hell”, all are already saved, so freewill or determinism doesn’t matter at all?

Why are you, then, even bothering with this discussion?

BTW the scripture passages you referred to are, again, what i have referred to as the relative view of scripture, not the absolute. No one has refuted this viewpoint/theory.

Did God not bring evil upon Noah’s generation in the flood?

Did God not bring evil upon righteous Job?

Did God not burn to death wicked Sodom?

Did God not turn King Neb into an animal for 7 years?

Dod God not let Jonah be swallowed by a creature in the sea for 3 days?

Shall i add another 50 scripture passages to the above?

Could God, Love Almighty the Omnipotent, love beyond what we can imagine or think, whose love never fails, love beyond even faith and hope, who loves even HIs enemies, not stop all of the most (100 thousands of) wicked acts of history you can imagine if He desired? Why didn’t He?

More importantly, if you accept UR, do any of these momentary sufferings matter compared to/relative to endless eons of bliss for eternity?
Plesae answer that, or, most respectfully beloved brethren in Jesus, stifle thyself (and quit posting cartoon pictures, LOL x2) ;

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Please - we’re throwing around the word ‘evil’ and not discriminating between a moral evil (profoundly immoral and malevolent.
“his evil deeds”) synonyms: wicked, bad, wrong, immoral, sinful, foul, vile, dishonorable, corrupt, iniquitous, depraved, reprobate, villainous, nefarious, vicious, malicious) and those things we call ‘evils’ which are punishments or corrections that God brings.
If we call punishments that are corrective in nature ‘evils’, then we must differentiate that usage from the moral usage.

I cannot think that even the ‘big picture guys’ could lay vileness or corruption or depraved and immoral acts at God’s feet and say : You caused this.

As for ‘allowing’ evil - obvious, isn’t it, that we have been given a freedom and a responsibility, and WE have turned each one our own way, and WE have been reaping what we have sown since, almost, the beginning of things.

We have to lay the blame where it belongs - we are sinners. We were given stewardship and responsibility and instead we have made hell on earth.

God did not make moral evil. We did and we do. And still we (the human race) will not acknowledge our sins, assume our stewardship, and grow into Christ.

Once we lay the charge of immorality at the Creator’s feet, well, read this from Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin:

I am merely expressing the deepest and most mature, though often unspoken, convictions of millions of earnest Christian men and women, when I assert, that to reconcile the popular creed, or any similar belief in endless evil and pain, with the most elementary ideas of justice, equity, and goodness (not even to mention mercy), is wholly and absolutely impossible.
Thus this belief destroys the only ground on which it is possible to erect any religion at all, for it sets aside the primary convictions of the moral sense; and thus paralyses that by which alone we are capable of religion. If human reason be incompetent to decide positively that certain acts assigned to God are evil and cruel, then it is equally incompetent to decide that certain acts of His are just and merciful. Therefore if God be not good, just, and true, in the human acceptation of these terms, then the whole basis of revelation vanishes. For if God be not good in our human sense of the word, I have no guarantee that He is true in our sense of truth. If that which the Bible calls goodness in God should prove to be that which we call badness in man, then how can I be assured that, what is called truth in God, may not really be that which in man is called falsehood? Thus no valid communication - no revelation - from God to man is possible; for no reliance can, on this view, be placed on His veracity.
For let me repeat that if goodness in becoming infinite turns into evil - if infinite love may be consistent with what we call cruelty - then, for all we know, truth may turn into falsehood, justice into flagrant wrong, light into darkness.

BOTH freewill or determinism have their place in scripture, but HOW that is is so often misconstrued… some of your “viewpoint/theory” being a case in point, IMO.

WHAT?… just because I have an understanding on these things other than the one you dictate you think you can question my participation! :unamused:

By all means you are welcome to replace those “scripture passages” with your “viewpoint/theory” – I know which I find more inspiring and trustworthy.

And you think you are proving what? Clearly as I’ve stated previously God’s freewill triumphs over man’s freewill WHENEVER He so chooses, and He does as he wills. Again, your point?

Based on your view expressed earlier… you maybe shouldn’t go there. :blush:

“stifle thyself” :question: :question: :question: :unamused:

I grew up in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, and went to grade school there through eight grade.
They practice closed communion.

That’s where I probably got ingrained, with this “free will stuff”, rather than embracing the “puppet on a string” viewpoint. It’s hard to teach an old dog new tricks. But to be fair, this same determinism view is shared by Islam - which has over 1 billion worldwide followers. That’s why I’m trying to get on board and help spread the deterministic word - from a Christian perspective. :laughing:

I don’t think that philosophers and Christian theologians will put this “free will stuff” vs “puppet on a string” perspectives to bed - anytime soon. It probably needs a final revelation, from the creator. :laughing:

And hypothetically, if you put a Full Preterist, Die Hard Christian Determinist, and a Christian Scientist, in a room together - guess what? They would argue to eternity, regarding their perspective viewpoints, from Biblical exegesis :laughing: .

I am no expert in the determinist viewpoint, but will share an opinion which the more learned may correct.

What is it that dictates a man’s actions if he has no freewill? It is his will that is not free, but makes choices that are in bondage to his own individual nature as created by such things as birth, heredity, environment, etc.

Likwise, what was it that made a dog to bark? HIs free will? Or his nature?

What was it that made a cat to meow? HIs nature.

What made the cow to moo? His nature.

What made the Satan to be a liar & a murderer from his beginning/creation? His nature.

None of the above could do anything to be free from their nature they were born with anymore than a leopard can change its spots.

Hence they do not have free will.

Disclaimer: the above is an opinion of a theoretical determinist, not necessarily that of the author.

Any discussion about man’s will also needs to give thoughtful explanation to man’s sinful nature. Some opponents to God’s sovereignty and man’s crippled will misunderstand and think that man is a puppet, doesn’t make decisions, or cannot make decisions. This is an unfortunate misunderstanding and has resulted in a waste of argument over words. Of course human beings make decisions! However, just like any other being or even a material object, mankind cannot exercise a function or property that is outside of our nature. So advocates of God’s sovereignty over all are using the word ‘free’ (or not using it for that matter) in a very absolute and philosophical way. We are saying that man’s will is not ‘free’ in two very critical ways.

First since the nature of man is sinful, mankind cannot change his own nature. We are sinners by nature. We are not sinners because 100% of all human beings just ‘happened’ to sin or chose to sin by our supposed ‘free’ will. Instead we sin because we are sinners by nature. Love of sin, selfishness, and hatred of God is woven into the first born nature of every human being. Our will is not free, but bound to sin. Parenting is often a good exercise to make this observation. Mom and dad are so happy to have a beautiful healthy baby, but it is not long before they observe that the will of even this beautiful baby is bent and corrupted with a natural desire to sin and disobey. Ezekiel 16 highlights this observation.

Second the Scriptures teach that God is both the changer of hearts and the one whose loving influence prevails in every situation from the greatest to the lowliest. Man’s will is not free to prevail over God’s will, but instead his will prevails over our will and over all. Sadly some use words like ‘deterministic’ to describe God’s loving influence in the world. Seems to me like that those who would do so should be thanking God for his influence when they are maligning it. Anyway the happy news is that since God alone is the heart changer he can and does change hearts and so we see individuals becoming Christians and one day all mankind will worship Christ around his throne as he promised. Previous posts have objected saying that if this were the case then God himself is evil for allowing or causing or influencing evil acts in this world. Yet Acts 4:28 makes it clear that God has a good purpose even in these hard to understand things for there was no worse moral evil in the entire world than the crucifixion of Christ. Yet we read that, ‘They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.’ The most thoughtful explanation of God’s absolute sovereignty over all I have read was in Millard Erickson’s ‘Christian Theology’ for he takes numerous pages to thoughtfully describe God’s sovereign work as ‘sausive’ and lovingly artistic in His purpose.

Decades ago my roommate in college described to me a funny story about how his parents tried to educate his sisters about the birds and the bees. As we all know learning about procreation can be a shock for children and so special timing and settings are needed for this exercise. Yet as awkward as it is, it is a necessity in order to move children into adulthood. Anyway when my roommate’s sisters learned that fertilization of the egg happens through insertion of the man’s penis into the woman’s vagina, they freaked out saying ‘no man is going to stick that into me!’ I still laugh thinking about it. Little boys likewise have the same aversion to girls. However, we all know that hormonal changes happen that change all of our minds about our interest in sex. Seems to me that those who reject God’s loving sovereignty in salvation are having a similar reaction as my roommate’s sisters. They are saying ‘no God is going to stick his influence and change into my life and give me new birth. I am changed and born again by my own FREE WILL.’ Oh really? Even the very image of God designed into mankind teaches us that God is the initiator and we are the responder. Life flows from God to mankind, from Christ to the church, and as the metaphor of our own bodies illustrate, from husband to wife.

Friends, a romantic does not use the word ‘deterministic’ to describe sex. Why even my mechanical explanation above parts ways with romance, yet it is an accurate description of procreation, though inappropriate in most settings. However, if someone wants to discuss the physical details we could diagram it. There is much more here than can ever be said in this setting because we also read that Christ is in the Father and the Father in God, just as believers are in Christ and Christ is in the believer. A careful theologian will note the significance that the choreography of this dance always begins with the Father serving Christ first and Christ serving the church first. So everything from creation to romance demonstrates that the origin of all things is from God, just as the Scriptures teach. God alone has no antecedent. So Christian theology can diagram the details of God’s utter sovereignty over our personal salvation timeline and his sovereignty over all. A bold Christian can do that because they trust that God is loving, always! Though some may freak out like my friend’s sisters. So we should remind ourselves that in practice God is not mechanical at all, but instead a true romantic. He is a most loving courtier as he changes our hearts and handles this corrupt world. So praise God that we cannot change our own hearts or the hearts of others. How dangerous would that be! God is much better at bringing us to the ecstasy of knowing him!

Time to share a classical and historical poem today. :laughing:

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4161e9231033aa335aca697a3ef0c4e2?convert_to_webp=true

Yes there are blind men, but Christians are not blind. We are not touching elephants, but instead God has touched Christians opening our ears and eyes, so that we can now touch him, 1 John 1.

On the main point of Christ and what he accomplished - no. On many other points - yes. We still argue today, both on this forum and in the world at large (i.e. Roman Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, etc.), over who has the right doctrine and/or perspective. :laughing:

What is even worse than that is a group of thugs grabbed God’s perfect, sinless Son, beat Him, flogged Him, nailed Him to a cross and killed Him.

We are told God made them do it.

And you thought you had the worst case scenario! You see, you can’t embarrass God out of being in control of His universe.

If God is not in control, He is therefore out of control. If He is out of control, He is no longer God. Since He is in control and since He is working all together for GOOD, then God is justified in what He does.

Since God is everywhere, (Paul said "in Him we are moving and living and are) and “God gives to all, life and breath and all,” God could easily stop all the evil acts in an instant. Since He does not, He is responsible.

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This is just a fascinating discussion, but the logical next step to the free will, determined/providential road is the idea of prayer, the asking of God to change what may be another persons free will or possibly God’s own providential will. :confused:

just a note to HFPZ, I appreciate the art. Keep it comin. :smiley:

Romans 8:26-27 easily answers that question…

So even our prayers are owned by the Sovereign God :wink:

Thanks, Chad. This reminds me of an old Quora discussion:

If God is an all-knowing being, why does one need to pray?

Of course, you can substitute other language words. Instead of “If God is an all-knowing being” , substitute something like “If God determines everything”, etc. :laughing:

Of course, not everyone will understand things the same way, as this video will illustrate:

youtube.com/watch?v=diXTLc46X90

or

i think of the one calling as the academics, scholars, logicians, etc. They will win the degrees, prestige, etc.

The simple ones who mess things up (i.e. folks like Stan Laurel and Curly Howard), are most likely the ones God gives spiritual gifts to and gives them the capacity to perform miracles.

That is the paradox, folks. And the big joke.. “it’s turtles all the way down” :exclamation: :laughing:

Just for the sake of argument, suppose God did give all mankind free will. As much as I hate to join “free” with “will” I am only doing so for this argument. So suppose God gave all mankind free will. God obviously knew in advance what this would do. He knew mankind would murder, kill, cheat, lie, steal and on and on by doing so. So how does this get God off the hook for all the evil in the world that humans do? It doesn’t. If a man builds a machine and makes it so that machine can do whatever it wants and he lets the machine go in the neighborhood and it knocks down houses and kills and maims, the man is still responsible for what the machine did.

As to prayer which maintenanceman brings up, we actually should pray, not to twist God’s arm and get Him to force others to do what we consider the right thing, rather prayer is supposed to align our wills with God’s will. Even Jesus, in prayer said: “Not my will but Thine be done!” And that was concerning Him going to the cross. So it was God’s will that Christ get all bludgeoned and beat and whipped and nailed.

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I am in Revelation 16 and in verses 10 to 11 another bowl is poured out and the people blaspheme the God of heaven for their miseries and for their ulcers and they do not repent of their acts.

If humans have free will, a will which God gave them in the first place, why would God try to get them to change the very will He gave them?

On the other hand, if these people could not do otherwise than to do what they must do, why will God try to make them stop that which they are made to do?

Could it be God is trying to show them that they can’t change without Him changing them from the inside? And since God eventually will change them from the inside, why does He wait thousands of years for their change? Why all the evil for thousands of years? It is because man must learn from the knowledge of good and evil.

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a few adjustments made to my post above Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All.

So let’s go back to this poem and ask a pragmatic question. If everyone is eventually saved, then why argue to prove (from Sola Scriptura and a little bit of philosophy), that some blind person, has the right understanding of what an elephant is? Or that everyone else should buy into, that particular description or theory, regarding the elephant? If all paths lead to the same end (universalism), what does it matter if we follow:

A Christian Science path
A full Preterist path
A full Christian determinist path
A Christian Libertarian, free will path
etc.

Isn’t everyone just trying to prove they have a way to the elephant (i.e. universalism) and not some other animal - like a rhino (i.e. ECT, etc.)?

Of course, not everyone will understand things the same way, as this video will illustrate:

youtube.com/watch?v=diXTLc46X90

or

A couple other items came to mind:

I took a class in Christian history, from the College of Dupage. The professor was a Baptist minister, who got his doctorate in theology, from a Catholic university. I emailed him and asked him if there was a rational way, to tell who had the right Christian doctrine. The next day (without mentioning my name), he gave a talk about this email. His answer was that there is really no rational way. It’s a matter of belief.
Following a discussion (i.e. like this) is like joining some Hollywood names, who go to see a new movie. The movie might be “Plan Nine From Outer Space” , which is one of the worst movies ever made.

Now Ed Wood might say, if he were still alive, that God gave him the insight for the script. And he might give the Hollywood names logical reasons, why it is a good film. And he might present his “theory”, on what constitutes a “good or correct” script and movie. But they would still say, it’s a horrible movie. Now I have been to the nearby Christian Science Church, in the past - to hear talks. And to the national headquarters of the Theosophical Society in America, to hear talks on Esoteric Christianity and Gnosticism. But** even **Esoteric Christianity, Gnosticism, and Christian Science - no matter how outlandish (compared to the typical RC, EC and Protestant presentations, even if you remove the hell elements) - just appear to be better movies, than “Puppet on a String”. Sorry, Ed Wood. Nothing you have said, can redeem the actual movie (i.e.“big picture”) you made.

or

youtube.com/watch?v=u2ukRYsYPmo

P.S. Here’s the full movie (about 1 hour and 20 minutes - it’s the “big picture”), if you wish to watch it - and not just the trailer.

youtube.com/watch?v=Ln7WF78PolA

I believe that this is a soul-making enterprise, this Earth of ours. Christ has presented God’s way (according to HIm, right?) of ‘soul-making’; i.e., growing into the fullness of Christ. And one of the entailments of being involved in soul-making is, I believe, that our characters , going on into the life AFTER life after death, don’t get changed immediately. We do reap what we sow and though God will make it right in the end, the path getting there will be painful, depending on what we do ‘here below’ to grow into godly people.

AS to free will etc. - I don’t think our stance on that makes much difference. We all act as if we have choices, we all know (I hope) that the responsibility for ourselves and the world falls to us, it is a gift to be treasured and cultivated, not wasted. $.02

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:

That is a good question, and Tom Wright says in his book ‘Justification’ that what we are talking about is the very problem. The western mind is so concerned with itself and “MY” salvation that it has lost much of what Christ really came for and accomplished… Thus we continue to spin our wheels. God’s remedy through Christ, as I understand it, is to show that faith 'of ’ Christ needs to be understood. Most of Christianity wants to focus on faith ‘IN’ Christ. The difference may seem subtle but it is HUGE. :astonished:

Those who know of Toms work and can show where I might be mistaken, I welcome the correction, but in my reading, this is not only Tom’s position but a new paradigm as to looking at Paul’s writings and the Gospel in general. :exclamation:

Quite simply… because sin wrought an interference to man’s ability to walk naturally according to His will; thus God’s corrective injunctions to do so. Sometimes along the way He in His mercy has needed to provide a deterministic nudge in the right direction. It’s not rocket science.