Folks need to read this a few times 
Davo - did NOT realize I was engaging in sleight-of-hand 
The ‘old’ way of talking about the XN life was ‘salvation, then sanctification’. Those that taught it were convinced that following the NT patterns of discipleship, such as laid out by Paul and others to the congregations they were responsible for - thinking, I believe, that since it was not possible for Paul to address you and I 2K years later - that following the patterns of the apostles would be following a prudent path. I happen to agree.
Closer to home, I think it is important to know how God guides us through life. One way to know this is to study the Bible - which, if not written to us, can still be profitable for us, in the matter of growth and wisdom. God has chastened people in the bible, he has loved them, he has guided them and corrected them. I don’t think that has changed; I hope it hasn’t, because His providential care is something I count on with every breath.
I understand your pantelism pretty well now, having read the material on your site and other sites that deal with such matters. I am sometimes unclear as to its bearing on matters of discipleship. I’m sure you can clear it up.
Chad - I will never talk to you again, we have broken fellowship. Just kiddin’ - I’ve got a thicker skin that that, and my attitude is that you’ve gotta call 'em as you see 'em.
Looks like I owe Chad another $5-er ^^^ 
That’s why I was careful to use the word “inferred” to your agreement with Jeff’s use of “a sly contextual leap” 
Yep and I’d whole-heartedly agree… and yet HOW that is done and WHAT that might look like might not entail the same details as per the context of their lived “end-of-the-age” experience.
Agreed.
Again I would agree BUT with this caveat… such or said “chastening” is CLEARLY pertinent to THIS LIFE and anything beyond that can ONLY be read INTO such texts as Mt 25:46 and that for positional purposes but NOT exegetical.
In a similar vein I like the way Andrew Perriman puts some of this…
DaveB said:
“Chad - I will never talk to you again, we have broken fellowship. Just kiddin’ - I’ve got a thicker skin that that, and my attitude is that you’ve gotta call 'em as you see 'em.”
Well, my friend, truth prevails. I appreciate your love. I hope you understand that. We might not agree on theology, but I think we can believe together. My favorite guitar player in the whole world was Chet Atkins, Michael Hedges really influenced me, and I actually signed Preston Reed to a recording contract for about two hours. Don’t ask.
We are some how thrown together in this thing called life, and I appreciate you.
The reality for me is that Christ has done the work of the father, and I just hope folks can at least see a different position when it comes to the position of post mortem punishment. Golly, Christ is bigger than that.
We will talk soon.
Love ya,
Chad
This is an excellent point! Matthew 25:46 is clearly parallel. However, there is one very compelling exegetical answer…
Contrary to most universalists, while still being a universalist myself, I understand that the goats on Jesus left are not human beings but instead the fallen angels just extracted from Tartarus or Thalaasa for their judgment and sentencing to the LOF. I am fully convinced that the LOF is prepared only for the fallen angels! Check this article for a complete study dgjc.org/optimism/fallen-angels-at-the-great-white-throne-judgment. Wow it is so hard to discuss my whole argument in these little forum posts. I would love for you to read my entire argument in my book at amazon.com/Optimism-Out-Control-clarification-gospel/dp/151523990X.
So your argument that Matthew 25:46 must be parallel is accurate. However, my understanding then defends that chastisement for unbelieving mankind is temporal in Hades only. So blessed eternity begins for all mankind at the sheep and goat judgement which I understand to be synonymous with the the GWT. Unbelieving mankind is extracted out of Hades for their salvation, not for their further punishment!
Jeff, I can appreciate your fervour… however, as per the context of the passage I cannot buy into this idea that those separated to the left, i.e., the goats, to be “fallen angels”, for these reasons from the text…
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Those cast into the “everlasting fire” WITH “the devil and his angels” WERE those of the NATIONS (the tribes of Israel) gathered before the throne (Mt 25:32) who had not practiced graciousness to the… hungry, thirsty, naked, sick or those in prison. These “nations” are people and NOT “fallen angels”.
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There is NO record of ‘fallen angels’ ever being instructed in the ways of charitableness… that was a basic calling within ISRAEL. Those so separated were other than “the devil and his angels” (Mt 25:41); this the text makes VERY clear.
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NOWHERE in Scripture are angels referred to as the dead… whatever angels might be said to be “the dead, small and great” (Rev 20:12) are ALWAYS a reference to PEOPLE who “were judged, each one according to his works” (Rev 20:13).
Chad - we’re good, my friend. “Opposition is true friendship” (Owen Barfield to C.S. Lewis) (Or vice-versa)
I reckon Tommy Emmanuel can play anything that can be done on acoustic guitar. But, I have about 20 guitarists that, each one, is my favorite.
Wow that is a pretty quick assessment. Did you read my article or my book? I’d love to get a more thorough critique from you. You did have three good objections, however, beginning with Matthew 25:41, which explicitly says the LOF is prepared for the fallen angels and not mankind, I then list more than three reasons to defend my understanding. So your arguments will need to be weighed against mine.
Ya Mr. Emmanuel is great, I have to confess my sin here, I read an interview of his and he mentioned something along the line that at one point his marriage got in the way of his career, and basically one had to go. I’m a bit old fashioned that way, and hey, she might have been a witch. But it is funny how something like that will taint one’s view. Never listened to him much after that.
It is unfortunate, but I’m not above judging someone is what I guess I am saying. 
It is because every believer is at a different level of maturity. And the Bible says “God gives to each a measure of faith.”
And since this thread is really about God’s sovereignty in the salvation of all, and since we are told God WILL have all mankind to be saved FOR Christ gave Himself a ransom for all (see 1 Timothy 2:4-6) we see God sovereignly involved in the salvation of all. He will save all because all have been ransomed. Since all mankind have been ransomed all mankind must be freed from enslavement to sin and death into the freedom of immortality and incorruption.
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I’m confused. Why would any “Universalist” church teach eternal correction? Would that not negate God saving all? And would that not lump the “Universalist” church in with the eternal tormentist church?
Actually there is a perfectly legitimate work-around for the above problem. First of all, Matthew 25:31-46 is not about all mankind but the NATIONS which well treated or mistreated Christ’s brothers during their great tribulation. This judgment occurs when Christ returns (see Matt.25:31) and sets up His 1000 year kingdom in Israel. The bad NATIONS get eonian chastening which is the chastening pertaining to that eon. The NATIONS which treated His brothers well get eonian life which is the enjoyment of life of the kingdom blessings pertaining to that eon. In both cases the chastening and blessings are pertaining to that eon. That is what the adjective “eonian” tells us. That eon will end and then the New Earth eon begins. So the chastening and life of blessings for those NATIONS will end.
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@Eusebius, I’ve enjoyed our agreement concerning God’s sovereignty over mankind’s salvation. In fact I must confess that I am confused by the objections of others because our great confidence that all mankind will be saved is because God has willed it, promised it, secured it at the cross, and now we simply wait for the final removal of all sin and brokenness on that great day!
As a side and perhaps minor point, I recently switched my eschatological view. I think I understand that you are a pre-millenialist so that the Sheep and Goat judgment is before the 1,000 and the GWT then after. That was my view for most of my Christian life. However, recently I have switched to the view that the 1,000 year period is the church age and that the Sheep and Goat judgment is the same event as the GWT. Hopefully that is a minor point between us. If you are curious how I came to change my view here are two articles on the subject…
dgjc.org/optiomism/eschatology-is-the-study-of-future-good-news
Yes, Tommy is very gifted. I’m sure it took a lot of hard work though. He is such an inspiration to us guitarists to watch.
Yes, Chiliasm (Thousand-ism) which was the earliest church view of a coming thousand year reign of Christ, was later considered heretical by the later state religion called the Roman Catholics. But some say it wasn’t condemned. I do hold to the coming thousand year reign of Christ on earth. However, I am of the opinion that the believers of the nations will not see that since they will, in spirit, be with Christ among the celestials during that time.
It is nice that we can disagree on this matter yet keep the unity of the spirit with the tie of peace. I will have a look over your links provided.
P.S. I appreciate your irenic posts.
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I have read some of your material from previously posts where you’ve provided a link or two. I can’t say I go with your basic eschatological position as I think your theology drives that, but to be fair to you I think that can be true and said of any of us; I just subscribe to a differing and what I see as a more logical and historical perspective, that’s all.
I agreed the fire was for “the devil and his angels” but your objection “and not mankind” I show to be inaccurate BECAUSE the goats to the left ARE FROM the so-gathered NATIONS i.e., a portion thereof, and thus CLEARLY PEOPLE and NOT your “fallen angels” – now you haven’t shown here HOW vs. 32 isn’t relative to vs. 41… you need to show that and not simply just claim it as so.
Well so far any reasonable reading of what I’ve produced indicates that, to use your words… “You did have three good objections” 
and so far you haven’t given your counter points where you “list more than three reasons to defend my understanding” – so why not just show such and your “arguments will need to be weighed against mine.”
EXACTLY… but that is the net effect and result of the universalist position that seeks to mollify kolasin <κόλασιν> BUT then neglects the fact that said chastening is “lasting” or “age-enduring” IN ACCORD WITH the said “life” OF THE SELF-SAME “lasting” or “age-enduring”. You see logically it just doesn’t stack up, as you yourself can see and have acknowledged.
I actually agree with you here, although I view this as fulfilled history ALREADY past (which obviously you do not) in terms of unrighteous of Israel having persecuted “the Israel of God” in the ‘last days’ of the old covenant age or “eon”.
This is WHERE your theory gets muddled and stretched… IF you are going to maintain that the “eon will end” HOW or on WHAT basis can you THEN logically claim that the “New Earth eon” does NOT likewise have an END, given that according to you an “eon” must have an end. << See, you have the SAME problem, or put simply… ‘same house different street’.
Now just to confuse you more, I DO believe “eon” has a time-frame BUT reached and concluded for reasons other than what you give, and that’s because as just shown… your logic is faulty and cannot IMO be maintained.
‘Ethnos’ does not mean ‘nations’ as in the human nations of the world. 1st century Greek ‘Ethnos’ does not even mean ‘Ethinic’ group is it does in modern English. Quoting from my article dgjc.org/optimism/you-are-wrong-about-matthew-25-31-46…
Hi jeff,
I’m sure you do know there is another, perfectly legitimate understanding that Matthew 25:31-46 is not the Great White Throne judgment. In Acts 10:22 we have “the nation of the Jews.” A nation is a collection of people with a ruler and a geographical boundary in which that ruler and people live.
Also, there is another perfectly legitimate understanding to “Adversary and his messengers” in:
“Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers” (Mat 25:41)
It can be understood that there is an ellipsis after “Adversary” and that “Adversary” need not be capitalized since it is not talking about Satan but rather** the adversary nation** to Christ’s brothers and “messengers” are “emissaries” who carry to other nations letters of negative import against the brothers of Christ to persecute them. And so the fire prepared for them is the same “furnace of fire” prepared for the bad Israelites when Christ returns:
The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness, and they shall be casting them into a furnace of fire. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 13:41-42)
Mat 13:43 Then shall the just be shining out as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who has ears to hear, let him hear!
The above takes place 1000 years prior to the Great White Throne judgment as shown in Revelation:
Rev_20:6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years." After the 1000 years comes the GWT judgment.
The result of the judgment in Matthew is “eonian chastening.” The result of the judgment in Revelation is called “death.”
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I’ve heard this argument many times, but I believe it to be invalid. (By the way, the Greek word “αιωνιον” transliterates as “aiōnion”) It’s the accusative case of “αιωνιος”
“αιωνιος” is a word that means “lasting.” The meaning says nothing about time; the time can be short, long, or unending. That which is “αιωνιος” can last a short time (Jonah in the belly of the fish for three days was “aionios” in the Septuagint translation.
Jonah 2:6 (2:7) to the clefts of the mountains; I went down into the earth, whose bars are the everlasting (“αιωνιος”) barriers: yet, O Lord my God, let my ruined life be restored.barriers: yet, O Lord my God, let my ruined life be restored.
Josephus used the word to describe the jail sentence that Jonathan underwent (it was 3 years).
In Philemon 1:15, the word refers to the return of Onesimus to Philemon (which certainly did not last forever).
In the Septuagint, the word is used to describe hills. Hills are lasting, but they are not eternal.
The word has been applied to our life in Christ, and also to God Himself, both of which have no end.
So the “goats” can go to lasting correction (The Greek word “κολασις” means “correction.” It was originally used in connection with pruning trees to correct their growth. It was later used figuratively to describe means of correcting the behaviour of children). As applied to the “goats”, it couldn’t be “everlasting correction”; if it were everlasting, the correction would never be completed).
The sheep go to lasting life. It just so happens that there is no end to that lasting life. Again, there is nothing inherent in the meaning of “aionios” that indicates any time frame.
Nice thoughts Paidion. I especially liked how you tied in the historic usages to show it was not used as a word denoting unendiness.