The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is God Violent In Hell? Does That Influence Us?—Cavanaugh

I promise to start working on this question, after I solve this puzzling one, from the Middle Ages. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?. Can you help me out there :question: :smiley:

I’d say at least 2 or 3 million.

The passage I’m thinking of does not specifically say 100 million years, but it does reference geologic ages. I think it’s in the second volume of Unspoken Sermons. I’ll see if I can find the passage. :slight_smile:

I really don’t think that the Bible tells us what will occur in the afterlife. So, it would only be speculation on our part. I suppose we can use reasoning to make an educated guess. That being said, I don’t think “everyone” is referring only to the disciples. I believe everyone will come to the truth sooner or later. If God is eternal/timeless then would there be an “age” in the afterlife or is it ageless? I would say that “age” or “ages” only refers to a world where time exists. Another question, if one continues on in rebellion until such a time when he comes to see the truth, even if it takes “forever” in the afterlife, wouldn’t this make sin “immortal”?

Yes I did read it… what are “wicked ways” if not “bad deeds”?

THIS is such a simple question and the nub of the issue at hand and yet the very thing you complicate out with your program of works that one must do to pass muster.

What did Jesus’ “once for all” deed do? – took away the offense of sin that was held over and against the world (Jn 1:29; 1Jn 2:2) thus reconciling humanity in NOT imputing humanity’s sin / misdeeds us (2Cor 5:19).

Your program has individuals as masters of their own destinies according to the work of repentance, albeit a righteous work, but a work nonetheless.

Just forgive everyone of their sin and let them all in?” – Oh no, we can’t have that can we… WE need to have some control in this matter, rolling out the rules, regulations, rituals and rote of religianity. Nothing kills the gospel message like quite self-righteous religianity!

That would not solve the sin problem at all!” – and our second trick is to invent “a problem” (that no longer exists) and convince others WE have the answer to their problem… how audacious!

The Cross SOLVED man’s problem… THE GOSPEL is about bringing the revelation of GOD’S RIGHTEOUS, not ours (Rom 1:17) to those who don’t know it, who when they actually grasp it lay hold of that peace as only God gives (Jn 14:27; 16:33).

THIS was not some generic saying but was applicable to believers – and although you don’t agree I see such “completion at the day of Jesus Christ” as pertinent to Christ’s AD70 Parousia with the perfecting of the saints in the fullness of the then now fully established new covenant of which up to that point such was in transition2Cor 3:7-11, 18. Note that each respective “glory” in this passage speaks of “covenants” thus Paul’s “from glory to glory” meaning from one covenant to another, i.e., from Old to New, cf. Heb 8:13.

Again Paidion, as I noted earlier with supporting texts… Jesus’ “everyone” was his disciples; THIS was not a generic global statement but was applicable to Jesus’ followers, again as per the context.

Jesus’ use of the term “the nations” was an idiomatic reference to “all Israel”… Israel was about to be (<μέλλω> mellō) judged and those who did not heed his and his apostles warning and call to repentance (), i.e., to change their minds and accept his message, would dully perish in the coming wars. We know this to be the case because speaking of the SAME event back in Mt 24:30 Jesus refers to the SAME as “then all the TRIBES of the earth will mourn” earth = land.

But apart from that, understanding the tribes of Israel as “the nations” in this prophetic passage can be viewed accordingly…

Clearly the nations referred to above ARE the tribes and multitudes of ISRAEL.

Not necessarily. Mt 16:28 makes it clear that… “some standing here will NOT taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” And the preceding verse shows that at that time “rewards” would be given. Although it doesn’t preclude it such does NOT necessitate “the afterlife” to find fulfillment.

Further, your “lasting life”… is that as limited as your “lasting correction”? What are the implication for your theory when held to consistency?

I’m not adverse to postmortem “correction” as my sense of human justice demands it… but I’m NOT running the ship, and however that MAY work out or look like we simply are not told. I suspect and this is pure speculation that as in THIS LIFE certain people are (or appear) closer to God so it may well be with that which awaits. But either way I reject the traditional view of “Hell” where people are said to come under fiery judgement, either limited or not. It is IMO a misunderstanding of scripture fostered by Christendom.

Again true… but from my perspective this didn’t require “death” FIRST to occur, although of course from my perspective many did indeed die… but that was the outcome Jesus had so vehemently warned against that they should turn and live (Lk 13:3-5).

I’d like to see WHERE is this continuous “sin” in the afterlife that so many here seem to so naturally assume… what texts??

Now for a little hellish humor. :exclamation: :laughing:

http://www.truthdig.com/images/made/images/cartoonuploads/gatesofhell_590_428.jpg

It cannot take forever for some particular event to occur. To say that it does is tantamount to saying that the event will never occur.

It is theoretically possible for a person to continue in rebellion forever, but it is practically impossible. For God, in his great LOVE will never give up on anyone; He will work on them until they repent and submit no matter how long it takes. To us it seems that there are some who will never cease to be rebels, but God knows what it will take to bring them in communion with Himself.

If a person continues to throw 1000 dice, will they ever all turn up sixes? Probably not during a person’s lifetime of throwing the dice. But if they continue to be thrown, eventually all dice will turn up sixes. I know human choice is not a matter of probability, but I think this analogy illustrates the certainty of eventual repentance notwithstanding.

If it were possible for a person to hold out forever, wouldn’t that indicate that his will is as powerful as that of God? However, no one can hold out forever. Even if he can resist for a million years, a million years is not forever. God eventually will fulfill His desire that all people will come to repentance, without overriding free will.

I think the following passage from the beginning of “The Consuming Fire” (in the first volume of Unspoken Sermons) is what was sticking in my memory:

I think I remembered it as “geologic” ages because of the following words from the very next paragraph:

In any case, this passage (along with others) gives me the impression that George MacDonald imagined his “Protestant Purgatory” as lasting an extraordinarily long time.

Thank you Geoffrey; I found the quotes you provided.

I don’t think there is a “Protestant Purgatory” per se. But people such as George MacDonald, myself, and others who believe in the reconciliation of all people to God through God’s active works in bringing this reconciliation about, regard Hell as one of the main, loving means which God employs in doing this. Thus (with this understanding) I suppose that Hell itself could be considered “one big purgatory.”

By the way, I am not a Protestant. I do not protest against Catholics. Neither am I a Roman Catholic nor an Eastern Orthodox believer.
Like Roman Catholics and Easter Orthodox, I believe there is only one true Church of Christ, but it is neither Catholic, nor Orthodox, nor any Protestant denomination. It is the Assembly (or “Church” if you insist) that Jesus Himself founded. Anything other than this Assembly of Christ, is a man-made club. I do not protest Christian clubs either. They are better than nothing. But you can be a member of such a club without being a disciple of Christ, and you can be a disciple of Christ without being a member of such a club.

If it were possible, it would be but a race of robots.

Yes, why? There is nothing in the Bible that indicates death as the cut-off point.

EXACTLY.

https://cdn.andertoons.com/img/toons/cartoon5503.png

It just takes the right eye ware :exclamation: :laughing:

https://cdn.andertoons.com/img/toons/cartoon1203.png

Lol… no kidding qaz, I’m sure you’re not alone. :unamused: I think holy-fool captures this essence quite well…

I should note that when I say “my sense of human justice demands it” I don’t put too much stock in the human sense of justice, or I’m cautious of it because… one’s sense of justice can easily become one’s vehicle of feigned righteousness, i.e., self-righteousness, as aptly demonstrated by Jesus here…

In other words… “how dare God let these (_______) into Heaven when they haven’t gone through the correct process as I learnt it to be!:imp:

Where does “Free choice” and “free will” fit into “make people Christian in an instant” :question: :unamused: :confused:
Did Jesus and/or God (depending on your forum theological perspective) "“make people Christian in an instant”, with Paul on the road to Damascus :question: :unamused: :confused:

My last sentence was no “strawman”… I actually had Paidion’s thoughts in view, not your opinions.

As for your questions… I simply replied to your statement as to your misunderstandings of my view; which on your part was no question.

I think qaz (i.e. Geeky Analytical Zombie? Me thinks remembering all the acronyms is so confusing. :exclamation: :laughing: ) means this straw man:

straw man 1

straw man 2

For a moment there, he had me going. I thought he met the Scarecrow, from the **Wizard of Oz **:!: :laughing:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTTqIryyBbVNtWRaKRPL11FBebF4Br_uU08RoX9-7GUXjTfp9gQ3Q

  1. Qaz, we have to remember that the holy Trinity did indeed start mankind in Paradise. Adam and Eve fell, thus exiling themselves and all their descendants from Paradise. There were two ways to make it to Heaven, and mankind has chosen the hard way. This was not God’s plan A.

  2. Paul’s transformation on the road to Damascus is emblematic of ultra-universalism: The enthroned Christ appeared to Saul, the chief of sinners, and snap he became Paul, Apostle of Christ. And THAT happened while Paul was still in this fallen world. Imagine what happens to a person when he is no longer in the fallen world, but is instead in Christ’s immediate presence in Heaven. Yeah. snap

Imagine an ice cube suddenly appearing a few feet away from the surface of the sun. How long would it take for the ice cube to melt? Perhaps 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000001 of a second, or something like that? That’s how long sin can last in the immediate presence of the enthroned Christ. His Godhead obliterates it out of existence.

Let’s go back to the ice cube example. How do you know** everyone** will react that way? Couldn’t we have cases, like those in this illustration :question: :smiley:

http://images.christianpost.com/full/39232/cartoon.jpg

The liturgy of Great and Holy Saturday (i. e., the day before Pascha [Easter to all you westerners]) notes that immediately upon Christ’s death, He obliterated all the sin from everyone in the grave and led them all up to Heaven, leaving the grave empty. Who was in Hades? Every single person who had died before Christ died, starting with Abel. Billions of humans, including the likes of Ahab, Jezebel, the pharaoh who ordered the slaughter of the infants, Nero who ordered the slaughter of the infants, etc. were all in Hades. And snap, they were all instantly purified from their sin and taken to Heaven.

Since Christ did that for billions all in the same instant, it is small potatoes for Him to do it for each individual upon his or her death.

In terms of that cartoon, no delusions or illusions can possibly exist in the immediate presence of the enthroned Christ. His very Godhead disintegrates all of that. All of the BS with which we have stuffed our brains here on earth will be gone. We will have no grounds upon which to engage in our specious “reasoning”. Nor will Christ convince us of anything through elaborate argumentation, with premises, philosophical connections, and inductions and deductions. Instead, our minds, everything about us, will be transformed into the perfect image of Christ. We will see the Truth by participating in Him. No possibility of error will remain. “God became man so that man might become God.” “Everything God is by nature, we will become by grace.”