The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Evangelical Universalism
#495

Eusebius, you said:
The Apostle Paul, a Jew, a former Pharisee of Pharisees, said Israel could not do the law. That should settle it.
The Jews were told by Jesus to search the Scriptures for in them they think they have life. Their only scriptures at that time was the Old Testament. They thought, wrongly so, that they had life via the law when in fact they did not. That was the point. Jesus wasn’t telling them to search pagan literature to find life.

John 5:39-40 says this: “You search the Scriptures , for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are NOT WILLING to come to Me that you may have life.”

Jesus was not telling them to go search the Scriptures so that they may have life. This was something that they were already doing, and because of their fallible interpretations of these scriptures, people were following doctrines and laws of men. Life is not found in a book. Yes, Scripture can be helpful and instructive, but the divine law of God is found in the heart. And YES, we are able to follow this law, as Jesus said “My yoke is easy”, which means the law is simple. Love God with all our hearts and minds, love our neighbors as ourselves, and when we go astray, forgive one another.

Davo, I see what you are saying, and I also think that you have made some good points about the law. However, John 15:24 says this:“If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father.”
John 9:41 “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.”
James 4:17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin." According to these verses, those who know the truth and still rebel remain guilty.

#496

My take on it is that Jesus told them to search the Scriptures:
“Search the scriptures, for in them you are supposing you have life eonian, and those are they which are testifying concerning Me,” (John 5:39).

Here is the Concordant Commentary on John 5:39:

39 The Jews prided themselves greatly on being the depository of the oracles of God, and on knowing His will. How could they fail to see in Him the long promised Messiah? Does it not seem strange that He should ask them to search the Scriptures. They did search them to disprove His claims (7:52), but their search was neither accurate nor honest. Instead of finding that Isaiah (9:1-2) foretold His ministry in Galilee, they were offended at it and used it against Him. They searched and found that Christ should be born in Bethlehem, and inferred without reason that that should be His home as well. We, as well as they, need to search and believe accurately, honestly, whole-heartedly, if we are to enjoy the fullness there is in the Scriptures.

#497

Questions for Eusebius and Jeff here:

First some background.

Anyway, there are three Christian positions on that at When did the last days begin?

So here are my questions - Jeff and Eusebius

When did (or will) the last days begin? If you don’t side with any of the 3 positions given, then what is your position?
What happens to humanity (both Christian and non-Christian), during the last days?
What happens to the soul (both Christian and non-Christian), immediately after death and at the last judgment (if this is in your theology)?

#498

I am position #2 with a caveat - “Position #2: This view believes that the last days began during the ministry of Jesus and the first century Church. The last days are defined as the continuous period of time from the ministry of Jesus to the second coming. Mankind has been living in the last days for 20 centuries.” The caveat is that I do agree with preterists in that many if not all mention of “last days” could be referring to the end of the Old Covenant era. However, I am not a full-preterist, but partial in that I think the millennial kingdom is this present church age and look forward to a future coming of Christ in glory, Colossians 3:4.

Take a look around. :slight_smile:

Christians can be assured ‘This day you will be with me in paradise.’ Non-Christians do not receive this assurance, but instead are held housed in Hades. 1 Peter 4:6 could be understood to mean that the unbeliever’s time in Hades is a function of their willingness to repent even after death. However, Revelation 20:5 could be understood to mean that unbelievers remain in Hades the entire time until the GWT. In light of the fixed chasm in Luke 16:26 I lean toward the thought that unbelievers remain housed in Hades until the GWT.

Good questions.

#499

Concerning the last days:
Acts 2:16 “This is what. Such is Peter’s interpretation of Pentecost. It was a fulfillment of ancient prophecy. God was in their midst as foretold in Joel (2:27). This, however, was introductory to the terrible celestial convulsions and earthly upheavals which prepare for the dreadful day of the Lord. It promised a time of trial and affliction unparalleled by any that earth has suffered hitherto. It introduced God in the character of an Avenger of His people, Who is about to gather the nations to battle and Who will destroy them in His fury. Had the nation of Israel repented, and the Pentecostal economy continued without interruption, there would never have been a parenthetic period like the present of which none of the prophets ever spoke, which was a secret hid in God (Eph 3:9) and which presents God as a Supplicant, petitioning for conciliation, and preserving peace at all costs (2Cor 5:20), Who showers His richest blessings on the nations and gives them a celestial allotment immeasurably beyond the highest thought of Pentecost.” (Concordant Commentary).

So the last days may have begun in Peter’s day but was interrupted when Israel was set aside and grace went to the nations. The last days will pick up again where it left off when the believers of the nations meet Christ in the air. Then all Hades is going to break out.

"zombie asked:

The “soul” is often a faded figure of speech for the whole person or literally of the senses of taste, feel etc. The Old Testament says “the soul is in the blood.” If you cut off the blood supply to the hand or foot we say it falls asleep. It looses it sensation. Soul is the sensations. When one dies the sensations are gone.

When both believer and unbeliever die they are literally dead. They are put in the grave to await the resurrection. The only time the believer sees the Lord is when they meet Him as a group in the air. The only time the unbeliever meets the Lord is in the resurrection to stand before the Great White Throne.

Jeff, you have a private message.

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#500

Thanks, Jeff and Eusebius, for your input. Now let me ask a couple questions, to each of you.

Jeff, you said:

Jeff. Do you believe in a corrective punishment for these unbelievers, until they repent?

Eusebius, you said:

It sounds to me that what you are proposing, is the common Protestant position of the rapture. Is this correct? Are you familiar with the fictional works (i.e. book and video series), called ** Left Behind**? If so, is this work similar to how you envision what happens, to those not caught up in the rapture?

Now, Jeff and Eusebius, you are both universalists with different (although similar in points) theological perspectives. All mankind is eventually saved. Does this include Satan and the unholy angels? If not, what happens to them?

Perhaps I’ll have more questions later, as I think of them. :slight_smile:

#501

Perhaps. First I understand that no one will repent without an interior work of the Holy Spirit. So God may do that or he may not in order to further prove a point about his grace toward sinners. Again refer to 1 Peter 4:6 and Revelation 20:5 already mentioned above. However, yes the punishment is corrective and measured by the wisdom and love of Christ.

No. I understand that all mankind is finally saved, but that the LOF is reserved only for the Devil and his angels, Matthew 25:41 and Jude 6. Note that ‘aidios’ the only Greek word definitively meaning eternal is only used twice. Once for God in Romans and a second time for the bonds securing fallen angels in Jude 6. Satan’s head will be crushed. Though if Satan is saved it is not explicit in the Scripture and would be sometime beyond the last verse of Scripture.

#502

I believe that believers of the nations will meet Christ in the air when He returns. That is what this passage states:

For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first, Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord." So that, console one another with these words." (1Th 4:15-18)

I disagree with some things in “Left Behind.”

If I can be saved, Satan should be a piece of cake.
We are informed that all at enmity to God will one day be reconciled to God. Satan is at enmity to God. Therefore Satan will be reconciled to God.

What do you think about this?

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#503

aidios is actually used for “imperceptible.” The “a” represents “un” or “no” and “idios” represents “perceive.” This is the case with a-theist where the “a” represents “no” and Theist represents God-ist.

The below is in the Scarlett translation of the New Testament

[size=150]Nathaniel Scarlett on Jude 1:6 “unseen chains” . . .
“Most Lexicon writers derive the word aidios from aei, ever or always: but
it may have the same etemology as hades, which they derive from a
negative, and idein, to see; and therefore it signifies invisible, unseen, or
unknown. In Romans 1:20 where it is applied to the power of the Deity, it
means unknown; because we see or know only a very small part of God’s
power. The word is used in a limited sense by the Greeks: thus
Thucydides has this phrase–othen aidion (imperceptible)
misthophoran uparchein, “from whence he expected a
perpetual salary.” But this could only be a salary during his life: therefore
the word here in Thucydides means a period unknown; though it will
certainly end.”[/size] (end of quote)

Here is the usage of aidios in Jude:

Jud 1:6 Besides, messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, He has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day."

They are kept in imperceptible bonds (bonds that can’t be seen but nonetheless real) UNTIL or FOR the judging. In other words, the bonds are not eternal. They have to be let out to be judged on day.

#504

I believe God will offer folks opportunities for reconciliation with him. Both in this life and after death (this is my reading also, of Bob Bell in Love Wins). My position is a combination of universalism and conditional immortality. The descriptions of torment in the bible, I believe are metaphorical. But I believe in the potential reality - of the second death. And most - if not all of humanity - will accept God’s offer. Hence, the metaphorical fires in the bible are purgatorial. But if man resists, they can enter the second death.

For Satan and the evil angels, they will cease to exist. So I agree with Jeff’s perspective, on Satan and the unholy angels. But we differ, in that the lake of fire, represents a second death for them.

The links in my signature, will explain more about inclusivism and purgatorial conditionalism - both are positions I hold. I’m away for the evening, so I can’t chat until tomorrow.

#505

Funny, My computer crashed this morning so I just arbitrarily stared reading Rob Bell’s ‘Love Wins’ again today. That dude was thinking out of the box. I was a little confused when he seemed to adamantly deny being a universalist, but I guess I now can see his point. :unamused:

Lot’s of us here are at different places. :smiley:

#506

And why should Satan cease to exist when he was created to do what he does?
The lake of fire is said to be torment for Satan. It is said to be death for humans.

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#507

And how long does it torment him for? We can see things discussed, in places like jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php

We just see things in different ways, Eusebius. Tonight I was thinking about the “full technology” Christian car. Most folks go buy a Christian car (i.e. Christian viewpoint), from a Baptist, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Methodist, TV evangelist, etc., salesman or lady.

But they never ask about the “add on” components. So I go into the Christian auto store and I start asking, about the add on technology.

http://www.listener.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/CARS-Cartoon-3-Riot-Control-640.jpg?fb06a2

Say, can I add on this “law of attraction” technology, all these “new age folks” are taking about? And all I have to do, is push this button?

I’ve seen this technology advertised, on one of these TV evangelist shows
And I can add this health and prosperity technology, like I see on the Joel Osteen TV ministry show?
And I can add the “full Gospel” (i.e. gifts of the spirit) to the auto?
And I can always be happy, joyful and cheerful?
And I can still add the Holy Fool tradition addition?

http://www.listener.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/CARS-Cartoon-4-coat-360.jpg?fb06a2

And all these are add-ons, to the basic car? And none of this add on technology, cancels each other out?

Fine. I’ll take the car, will all these add-on technology features. :exclamation: :laughing:

#508

Where is explicit reference in the Bible to humans in the LOF?

#509

IF I believed your assumption-laden statement (which I don’t) I would say Satan could cease to exist BECAUSE he had reached the use-by-date, and thus was no longer needed.

I’m not sure WHERE in the bible you find the ‘lake of fire’ actually being “said to be torment for Satan”?? BUT if you have in mind the “fire” of Mt 25:41 THEN the fires of “gehenna” Jesus speaks of in the gospels ARE indeed “the lake of fire” aka “the second death” and thus one and the same… none other than the fiery destruction of AD70; well I can buy that.

#510

And where in the Bible is Satan’s “use by sale date?”
He is put in the pit for the duration of the 1000 year reign of Christ. But then God lets him out to deceive the nations. Why didn’t God just let him remain locked up? Why didn’t God lock Satan up when he came before God in the days of Job? It would have saved humanity a lot of misery.
Why does it state in Colossians 1:20 that all in the heavens and earth will be reconciled to God? One who is at enmity to God must be reconciled to God. Satan is at enmity to God. He must therefore, at some time, be reconciled to God.

Rev_20:10 And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons."

Since Satan is tormented for the eons of the eons in the lake of fire, it hardly need be said he is destroyed. One cannot be tormented if one is destroyed. And the duration is for the eons of the eons.

For humans:

Rev_20:14 And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire.

Rev_20:15 And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."
The opposite of life in the scroll of life is death.

Rev_21:8 Yet the timid, and unbelievers, and the abominable, and murderers, and paramours, and enchanters, and idolaters, and all the false-their part is in the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second*** death***."

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#511

That doesn’t really answer my question which was “Why should Satan cease to exist since he was created to do what he does?”

But to answer your non-answer question:

Rev_20:10 And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons."

The eons of the eons is the duration of his torment. It doesn’t say he is destroyed but rather tormented.

#512

Please see answers just above this.

#513

These references do not explicitly reference humans, but could easily be understood to to be limited to the fallen angels. Matthew 25:41 however, does explicitly say that the the LOF is prepared for the Devil and his angels.

#514

My answer: That statement is not self-evident.

And like the Jehovah Witnesses and other such groups, you really don’t appear to want to see different perspectives. But just to present your own theological position. This is how I see things. It’s not a dialogue, as Roman Catholic theologians - might use the word. Sorry for sounding so blunt. :exclamation: :laughing:

Revelations can be interpreted many different ways, in a literal, metaphorical and allegorical way. Or a combination of such.

It really is a vision, that God gave to John. And from my experience, in the Native American community - I can add this. Sometimes the one having the vision, has no idea - what it is about. They usually go to the tribal elders, for advice and counsel - concerning the vision.

I doubt even John knew, what his vision met. While we can get the general idea, I don’t think anyone is an “expert” - on the book of Revelations. If they say they are, they are full of…I think you can figure out, how I planned, to end the sentence. :exclamation: :laughing: