Sorry, but guilt by association is a fallacious argument and doesn’t get very far with me. Neither does poisoning of the well arguments. Why don’t you start answering my questions with cogent replies rather than your cartoons? We aren’t in grade school.
That does not answer my question.
That does not answer my question.
The point is that it is stated that Satan is tormented for the eons of the eons in the lake of fire. Therefore he is not destroyed. It doesn’t take a tribal leader to figure that out.
And the death for the humans is for the eons of the eons. They are dead. They are not experiencing torment.
Now then, why would God destroy Satan for doing what God created him to do? Can you answer that question without cartoons? and without other questions?
Should I pull a Holy-Fool-P-Zombie on you and say “like the Jehovah Witnesses and other such groups, you really don’t appear to want to see different perspectives. But just to present your own theological position” ?
Would that solve our dilemma?
We know Satan and the other stooges of his ilk are being tormented in the lake of fire.
The judgment before the Great White Throne is for humans who are not in the scroll of life. (this can’t be for angels since they never were in a scroll of life)
humans can die. Spirit beings cannot die. The second death is only for humans. Those humans will come out of their death when death is abolished according to 1 Corinthians 15:26.
Free will is one of the most important truths there is, it calls into to question the very Character of God.
Whether Eternal Conscious Torment, Annihilationism, or Universalsim, how can anyone justly be held responsible for something they were divinely predestined to do?
The Bible says believers are predestined to be conformed to Christ’s image (Romans 8:29), but the Bible gives glory to God for that (Ephesians 2:10, Philippians 2:13).
Even though man makes the choice, God gets the glory in salvation because man can make that choice all day long but it’s still God who shows the mercy (Romans 9:16).
One of the barriers to be accepting Universalism is that many Universalists reject free will and believe in Calvinistic Predestination, and also the Trinity for that matter which means they reject The Lord Jesus Christ being God, another very, VERY important truth, probably even more so then free will.
But as to the forever part of Satan, we find this at Satan’s Death
You know, that’s the big difference between RYO (i.e. Roll Your Own) theological positions and established ones. The established ones, always have a consensus - among numerous people, holding the position.
When you say “Why should Satan cease to exist since he was created to do what he does?”, it’s like bringing a loaded pair of dice - to a game. What did God create him to do? And why do you feel or think that way?
You really are a late comer here. What he is presenting is a position of theological hard determinism, with the ultimate goal of universalism. He really doesn’t have this, as an historical and/or contemporary established, antecedent position. I don’t see any problem, with him believing his position. As long as he believes in Christ, his role in redemption and tries to keep the two main commandments - that Christ talked about. I do feel he is orthodox, in how he regards Christ - which is the most important element.
My position is that anyone can spin a theological position, that sounds reasonable, plausible and logical - all from sola scrpitural. It has been done numerous times in history and now. And just as Clint Eastwood, stared in spaghetti westerns (i.e. The Good, The Bad and The Ugly)…folks can present positions from Sola Scriptura - with Spaghetti Logic.
There’s a great discussion on Theological Determinism. And one point they make - is this (the article is neutral, by the way):
He never did name his position of theological hard determinism. So I took the movies Plan Nine From Outer Space and The Matrix. I call his position, Plan Nine From The Matrix. The audience is saying (in the drawing), “We all saw this coming.”
1 Peter 4 and Jude 6 make it clear that some fallen angels are already imprisoned and being held for future judgement on that Great Day. The GWT is that Great Day! So the body of people standing before the Lord includes both humans extracted from Hades and fallen angels extracted from Tartarus / Thalaasa. So since all mankind is written in the Book of Life, they are finally saved on the right while the fallen angels on the left who are not in the Book of Life are damned to the LOF.
But as to the forever part of Satan, we find this at Satan’s Death
You know, that’s the big difference between RYO (i.e. Roll Your Own) theological positions and established ones. The established ones, always have a consensus - among numerous people, holding the position.
Well, no talk about free will is complete without mentioning the Canadian rock band Rush and their song so appropriately named ‘Freewill.’
1980 from the album ‘Permanent Waves’
Here are the lyrics:
There are those who think that life
Has nothing left to chance
A host of holy horrors
To direct our aimless dance
A planet of playthings
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
The stars aren’t aligned
Or the gods are malign
Blame is better to give than receive
You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that’s clear
I will choose free will
There are those who think that
They’ve been dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them
They weren’t born in Lotus-Land
All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You can’t pray for a place
In heaven’s unearthly estate
You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that’s clear
I will choose free will
Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt
That’s far too fleet
You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that’s clear
I will choose free will
Interestingly these lyrics were written by the drummer, Neil Peart, (considered by most* the *greatest rock drummer of all time) who incidentally was a huge fan of Ayn Rand, and it could be said that much of Rand’s influence showed in Rush’s earlier works. (which this song would be considered) But the story gets a sad twist… Later on tragedy strikes Peart when he looses his only daughter and wife within the timeframe of about one year. Long story short he quits playing music (though he eventually returns) hops on a motorcycle and tries to make sense of it all. In his book Ghost Rider he relates the lonely journey he took to try to figure things out. But it is interesting how his thoughts move from agnosticism to seemingly outright disgust of Christianity, and his mocking of those cheesy church sign sayings we all see as we travel across America, as well as an underlying sense of blaming God for his loss. And yet all I have seen and read show Mr. Peart to be a sensitive, rational and very intelligent person. But I can’t help but think it is interesting that an agnostic would single out Christianity as the whipping boy of his hurt.
That said, I thoroughly enjoy his books, even if he seems hard on Christianity at times.
Satan was a liar and murderer from the beginning. God created him that way. The success story however, is not that God is going to put Satan on the eternal trash heap but rather change his heart.
I don’t see Rush in the Bible. But I did see them live just recently.
The Bible says all mankind has will. It does not say it is free. It does say it is the will of the flesh. The flesh is at enmity to God. Mankind’s will is at enmity to God. Humans who want to deify man want autonomy from God and be their own little god. But it doesn’t work that way. God does His will with the army of the heavens and with those dwelling on the earth and none can stay His hand or say to Him “What doest Thou?” (Dan.4:35).
According to the song, you have still made a choice. Yes, we all make choices. But those choices do not prove the will was free. It just proves we make choices. But what CAUSES us to choose A over B. No choice is causeless therefore no choice is free from cause and therefore no choice is free. Therefore no will is free from causality.
“God locks up all in stubbornness” according to Romans 11:32 but why? Read the rest of the verse to find out.
Since all are locked up in stubbornness or unpersuadableness, how is mankind’s will free to not be locked up?
And the male should make coffee. It’s in the book of He-brews.
If I remember correctly…can’t tell if I recall it correctly - or not. Maybe it was the works of Shakespeare. But if you take a roomful of monkeys…with a roomful of typewriters…and gave them an infinite amount of time…they could produce all the various historical and contemporary Biblical interpretations. Including the one presented, by our thread starter.
The big difference is that some of the positions, will be produced by only one monkey (i.e. RYO or Roll Your Own positions). In statistics, it’s called an outlier (that **strange **single point, which stands out - from all the rest). But there will be works, that will have an established consensus, by a large number of monkeys.
I see the whole thing as being more fluid and organic than what is represented in most theories. God as fore ordained according to His purpose that he will be all in all. The major strokes were all brushed in from the creation of the world. The individual details are predestined “according to the foreknowledge of God”, but all things are working towards His purpose, more like the current in a vast river than as manipulation of individual details.
He sprinkled among the baskets of grain(all the families of heaven and earth through out all generations) the leaven of the kingdom, the chosen, the ecclesia(called out ones)-the firstfruits of the restoration of all things(the elect from Abel through the patriarchs, through the judges, prophets and the general assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven heb 12). Outside the bubble(the other side of the veil, in the olam) God sees all complete from alpha to omega. Inside the bubble, we act according to a stewardship of time give to each one fro the purpose of becoming a son or daughter of God, and God interacts with us by His Spirit as a Father, a Shepherd, a Savior, etc.
It is portrayed in the first verses of scripture as “the way He works” - in my very personal and humble opinion.
“In the beginning the earth was without form and void, and the Spirit hovered over the waters”.
This, to me, is a picture of how God works with each individual and with all the families under heaven and earth and mankind as a whole.
The God said “Let there be light” and there was evening(darkness) and morning(light)
A division of chaos into light(that which is seen) and darkness(that which is still hidden) begins when the Logos, the incorruptible seed of the word of God is emplanted as “Christ in you, the hope of glory”…
Even as that seed was emplanted in the whole earth in the same way at the pinnacle of the ages, the hope of glory for the whole creation.
17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, with whom there is no change or shifting shadow. 18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.
The first fruits are the elect(more seeds, seed stock), chosen in each generation of each age to move the restoration of all things along according to God’s predestined purpose to set the whole creation free into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Looks like chaos and darkness from the inside. Looks like God is completely in control from the other side(olam) and God’s control is the absolute freedom of love in which all things find their appropriate place according to their predestined purpose and(in my view) that purpose is infinitely fluid and free.
And even if our gospel is veiled(hidden), it is veiled to those who are perishing(lost). 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts(tore the veil, manifested what had been hidden) to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.2 Cor 4
I think “Light shining out of darkness” is the hidden glory becoming manifest as the veil grows thinner as the “olam”(end of the age, world to come) approaches. Thats why we are encouraged to set our affections on things above and to be “seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus” wher all spiritual blessings are- in order to increase our awareness of what God is doing NOW, in our generation among whom we walk as lights- and increase our participation in it.
To me it is an issue of two different stages of consciousness and knowing which one we are speaking from.
An old quarter has an eagle and a GW head on it. The debate as to whether quarters are recognized by the head of GW or the eagle is due to our limited perspective.
We have choices, but God has predestined that all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose, and has appointed characters called out for “good” and “evil”.
IMO, Where the division between what is fore ordained(olam view) and what is our choice(present vview)- is hidden in mystery until the day that we know as we are known, and the footprints in the sand will teach us how we reached our destination, perhaps through the blessed mutuality of a relationship, with God our Father…
Abraham, the father of many nations, in whom all the nations of the earth would be blessed, was the friend of God- even as he was also chosen from the foundation of the world, so are we chosen and in training to become friends, because friends do His will out of love and wondrous awe of His beauty.
But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God…
…For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. Rom 2
It seems to me that these verses in Romans 2 concern the GWT, and it seems to me they concern the thoughts, deeds and secret attitudes of men. While I agree that the angels bound over in Tartarus fr the judgement of the great day are an example of those who will go into the “fire prepared for the devil and his angels”…it seems to me that according to Jesus in Mt 25:41
“Then also He will say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, those being cursed, into the eternal fire, having been prepared for the devil and his angels.”
and Mt 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal(aionian) punishment, but the righteous to eternal(aionian) life.”
that “all the dead” who are raised at the second resurrection will be divided at the GWT according to what is written in Matthew 25:31-46 and Romans 2:1-16 and according to the scrolls opened in Daniel 7:10, and according to the scroll of life -for those of us who hold a literal view of those things.
To me the “fire” is the light of His countenance and the “lake” is “the general assembly of the first-born registered in heaven”
Know you not you will judge angels?
Also in Rev 14 those who receive the mark of the beast
And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, 10he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone **in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.…
**
Not a literal fire but the fire of light and truth consuming veils of darkness in the presense of the assembly.
“God takes His stand(rules/judges) in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers. 2How long will you judge unjustly And show partiality to the wicked? Selah”
It seems to me all these verses indicate both men and angels.
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.” Heb 12
It is in this assembly the GWT occurs, imo
“Thousands of thousands ministered to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.” Dan 7:10
Aionian kolassis(correction) and aionian pyr(fire) Before the testimonies of love from the “callet-out ones” of the all the generations of the ages, myriads of angels, and the Lamb(rev 14) the adversaries will bow the knee and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
“You shall not escape until you have paid the last penny” …when the fire/light has burned away the veils they will yield to Christ crucified in joy deliverance.
But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6** For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ**.
His eyes are like flames and His face is as the sun shining in its strength in in the light of His glory the secrets of every heart will be revealed and the veils burned away.
Anyway, thats how I see it at the present time, through the glass darkly
I don’t think so. The pre-300 manuscripts of the New Testament were written in Greek with all upper-case letters, with no space between words, and no commas or periods at the end of sentences.
Jesus may have said to the thief on the cross, “I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”
Just in case you think that in “I tell you today,” the word “today” is redundant (of course He tells them today, what other day could He be telling them?)—I want to mention that it common in our day to use the expression, “I’m telling you right now…” and everyone understands that it the “right now” is for emphasis. Likewise, I think the “today” in Jesus’ statement is also for emphasis.
It seems I am going to have to capitulate to your obviously overwhelming knowledge of biblical knowledge, though I have to say that I would appreciate you forgiving me for my lack of understanding.
who incidentally was a huge fan of Ayn Rand, and it could be said that much of Rand’s influence showed in Rush’s earlier works. (which this song would be considered) But the story gets a sad twist… 
Later on tragedy strikes Peart when he looses his only daughter and wife within the timeframe of about one year. Long story short he quits playing music (though he eventually returns) hops on a motorcycle and tries to make sense of it all. In his book Ghost Rider he relates the lonely journey he took to try to figure things out. But it is interesting how his thoughts move from agnosticism to seemingly outright disgust of Christianity, and his mocking of those cheesy church sign sayings we all see as we travel across America, as well as an underlying sense of blaming God for his loss. And yet all I have seen and read show Mr. Peart to be a sensitive, rational and very intelligent person. But I can’t help but think it is interesting that an agnostic would single out Christianity as the whipping boy of his hurt.
