The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

As it says in John:14:28-29 “You have head Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe.”
It seems to me that Jesus knew exactly where He was going; to be with the Father. He also tells the thief on the cross, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” According to Luke 23:46 His last words were “Father, into your hands I commend My spirit.”

As we talked about this in another thread, I don’t believe Jesus was feeling forsaken by the Father.

Wow!

I wonder what the real debate is here about the word ‘forsaken’? Certainly one’s view on this point to tied to one’s view of the substitutionary atonement, even the meaning of the word atonement, also the Old Testament type of Abraham and Isaac, yes and the idea of a sacrifice, oh also the idea that there is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood and even deeper still Christ willingly obeyed the Father’s command, yet did Christ perform the atonement himself or what was the God the Father’s role?

Actually the question of ‘forsaken’ with a Biblical definition is actually answered for you in Romans 3:25a. It was always hard for me to picture how Abraham got Isaac onto the Altar. Does the Scripture even say? It is hard to imagine that Abraham did not wrestle with Isaac or quickly tie his hands before Isaac knew what was happening. However, we do know that this is not the case at all with the anti-type, our Savior. Jesus willingly and obediently laid himself on the altar. However, Christ did not sacrifice himself, but he was God the Father’s sacrifice of atonement.

I think that you will find a solid answer to your debate about the language of ‘forsaken’ at the very heart of the gospel. 2 Corinthians 5:21 even further clarifies that both God the Father and God the Son played different roles in the crucifixion.

Jesus was made to be sin and God is the one who made him to be sin.

Perhaps the most offensive aspect of the gospel for the unbeliever is that Christ suffered and died the death that we deserve. Yet the unbeliever plays heads games with the gravity of their own sin and the holiness of God. They do not confess, they do not agree with God that our sin merits complete separation and eternal damnation away from Holy God, to be utterly forsaken by God. They reason that they are really not that bad, but in truth the unbeliever instead knows nothing of the magnificent holiness of God… for no sin, not the least blemish can stand in his presence. Yet because of Christ’s death for me and our standing of being hidden in Christ I can stand before holy God even as a sinner and will never be forsaken. Praise to God’s grace alone!

Curiously, but not coincidentally, the promise that God will never ‘forsake’ us in Hebrews 13:5, strong’s G1459, is the same word that Christ cried out, “my God my God why hast thou ‘forsaken’ me.” Christ obediently laid his life down as God the Father’s sacrifice of atonement, and was made to be sin and entirely forsaken so that we will never be forsaken. Of course the good news is that Christ was was raised from the dead. He was not merely revived from a swoon, but was raised from the dead and now is raised to the highest honor. Christ our sacrifice is now our redeemer and king! The forsaken Christ is no longer forsaken, but forever praised!

Of course the ignorant will continue to argue with the gospel because they will say all of this does not make sense or defies reason. However, we worship a God whose love extends beyond our ability to comprehend. After all, what does it really mean for the incarnate God to be made sin and to die? Can God really do that? Well, yes he did! So you decide, worship the ordinary god of your imagination or the extraordinary God who is!

Of course if you do not like the word ‘forsaken’ then what word would you use to describe a king who made his own son to be sin and then offered him as a human sacrifice and death on a cross? Though it was already noted that ‘forsaken’ is the word that Christ himself used.

Hey, an honest question… why the objection to the term ‘forsaken’?

Jeff said:

That is very well said :exclamation: :smiley:

Do not agree with God??? God never said that “our sin merits complete separation and eternal damnation away from Holy God, to be utterly forsaken by God.” Not only do unbelievers disagree with this damnable idea, but a huge number of believers disagree—including myself.

Actually Paidon, I would have to say then that makes you an unbeliever, by your own confession. For to trust, obey, and worship Christ is to acknowledge that he is our savior. And if he is a Savior then he has saved us, not from a few mere scratches, but from damnable corruption. Certainly you understand that you are a sinner? Certainly you understand that outside of Christ, no sin can stand in the presence of God holiness? That is all we are saying here. If Christ didn’t save you from damnable corruption, then what did he save you from? Many name Christ from the Hindu to the Muslim. However, just because the Hindu believes all mankind will be finally saved, then that does not make them Christian. And just because the Muslim believes that Christ is a prophet of righteousness, then that does not make them Christian. To be Christian is to worship Christ as Son of God our savior. I will also add to that, if it helps you, that according to 2 Corinthians 5:19 and also Ephesians 1:4-8 that the entirety of mankind has always been ‘in Christ’ from before Creation and never ‘outside of Christ’. The believer understands that the question of mankind’s damnability ‘outside of Christ’ is only a hypothetical question because ultimately there is no ‘outside of Christ’ for mankind. Yet the answer to the hypothetical question is very important. Why? This exercise in understanding serves no point to change anyone’s eternal destiny, but instead opens our eyes to the awesome privilege of knowing God. Knowing God is the heart of Christ’s mission, that we would know our Savior, John 17:3. So your eternal destiny is certainly not in question by me, but whether your eyes are open to what Christ has actually done for us certainly is in question.

Salvation is a process. I am being saved from wrongdoing (sin). The angel told Joseph to call his name “Jesus” because He would save his people from their SIN (not from “damnable corruption”)—whatever that is.

What Christ has done for us is clearly stated in the writings of Peter, Paul, and the author of Hebrews. It is to provide the enabling grace of God (Titus 2) so that we might in the process of being saved from sin. God WILL NOT save us from sin unilaterally, and we CAN NOT save ourselves from sin. But working together with God, I can continue in the process of being delivered from sin. If we think we have no part in the salvation process, we may attempt to receive the grace of God, but it will be in vain:

2 Corinthians 6:1 Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain.

Again, Peter, Paul, and the author of Hebrews state the purpose of Christ’s death:

*I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works.

Heb 9:26 …he has appeared once for all at the end of the age for the abolition of sin by the sacrifice of himself.*

[size=140]THE TITUS PASSAGE:[/size]
For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)

Christian salvation has both process that involves us, to which I totally agree, and a point of grace accomplished apart from any of our striving, but by Christ alone. You miss the heart of grace, that we are justified by the righteousness of Christ alone. Your gospel falls 50% short of the truth… at best.

:smiley:

David Embury has a very good post about salvation and it kind of highlights what we need to do and what Christ Has already done! :wink:

It is here:pantelism.com/redemption/salvation.html :smiley:

Jeff, in answer to your question, “How would I describe a king who made his own son to be sin and then offered him as a human sacrifice and death on a cross?”, I would say that he is a false god. This is exactly who the leaders of Israel were at the time, false gods, murderers and thieves. Anyone who condemns and kills a righteous person should not be followed.
As it says in the following verses:
Psalm 94:21 “The wicked band together against the righteous and condemn the innocent to death.”

Deut.27:25 "“Cursed is anyone who accepts a bribe to kill an innocent person.”

Exodus 23:7 “Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty.”

Proverbs 17:15 “He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the Lord.”

Proverbs 6:16-17 “These six things the Lord hates, Yes seven are an abomination to Him: A proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood.”
Genesis 9:6 “Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed; for in the image of God He made man.”

Matthew 23:31-35 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth…”

1 Thessalonians 2:14-15 For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men…"

LLC, likewise your understanding falls short and fails to bow to the Biblical gospel. The unbelieving, self-justifying character of natural man refuses to bow to the fact that we are justified by the sacrifice of Christ alone, which is received by faith. The unbelieving refuse to bow because pride always seeks to be its own savior whether by ‘free will’ or otherwise. Why not believe that Christ died to make atonement for your sins? It is the good news! Wake up oh sleeper and rise from the dead!

Well, I’ll probably get chewed out for this as well. Nice irenic post. I might add that Christ was forsaken by God. But how are we to take the idea of Christ being forsaken? Christ prayed God would take the cup away from him. But it was God’s will Christ go to the cross. So can we at the very least take the idea of forsakenness to be Christ was not given a way out? He was in a way forsaken to have to be given over to evil men to put Him to death?

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Exactly.

Christ was God the Father’s sacrifice of atonement and also part of God’s master plan was to use Old Covenant Israel and pagan Rome as his chosen executioners. Obviously God’s plan was to expose mankind’s heart of sin apart from grace and still proclaim forgiveness for the worst of deeds as he said ‘Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing.’

1 Corinthians chapter 2 is another great passage to defend the title of this thread, in that it is God who has forgiven all and it is also God who has opened the eyes of any who believe. 1 Cor 2:8 also highlights that, “None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” The identify of the Christ was and is veiled from the unbelieving so that God can accomplish his great purpose of demonstrating grace to sinful mankind.

Isn’t it also interesting, when one really thinks about it is that Joseph’s brother’s sin of selling Joseph into Egypt was justified in the end. Their very sin of getting rid of Joseph was their very salvation.

Likewise, the chief priests and people of Israel who shouted “Crucify Him!” and “His blood be upon us” and Judas giving Him up will likewise be justified for it was by their very sin which brings about their salvation.

God’s wisdom is so incredibly wise! This is “wisdom is justified by her acts.”

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Also like John 11:50 when the chief priest prophesied that it would be better for one man to die for the people, than the whole nation be destroyed. Though the chief priest meant it for evil and didn’t realize how God meant it for the greatest good.

Jeff, I’m sure that LLC is not an “unbelieving, self-justifying character of a natural man” who “refuses to bow to the fact that we are justified by the sacrifice of Christ alone, which is received by faith.” He just doesn’t have the same understanding as you, and believes that your understanding is false, as do I.

If I understand you correctly, you believe in penal substitution. God had to beat up and kill his own Son in order to forgive you of your sin; He just didn’t have the ability to simply forgive you outright, though it is recorded that Jesus forgave outright several people during his sojourn on earth. Clearly his death was unnecessary in order to do this since He hadn’t died yet. (Or was his death effective retroactively?). You believe you can be “counted righteous” even though you are not. When God looks at you He is blinded to your sins and sees only Christ’s righteousness with which you have been cloaked. I understand this view well because I accepted it from the preachers I heard when I was a teenager. I continued believing this and sharing it with others until I was 24, when I read a book by Clarence Jordan entitled “The Sermon on the Mount” and when I began to examine early Christian literature for the first time. I began to see salvation in a new light, which has continued to develop in me over the years. The penal substitution view was unknown during the first centuries of Christianity.

Salvation is the process of being saved from SIN and not merely from hell. When we entrust ourselves to Christ, submitting to his Lordship, we have entered the door of salvation—but the process continues throughout life until:

… He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)

I need to coöperate with God’s enabling grace, working together with Him in order that the process of salvation may continue until it is complete. If I think I can receive the grace of God just by “accepting Christ’s finished work by faith,” I deceive myself. I am attempting to receive the grace of God, but it is all in vain:

  • Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain. (2 Corinthians 6:1)*

Again, I must coöperate with the enabling grace of God, or I will fail to be delivered from sin. Where faith comes in (in the salvation process) is where we trust Christ to go on delivering us from wrongdoing. THIS was the purpose of his death and resurrection:

…[He] gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds. (Titus 2:14)

George MacDonald (1824-1905) understood the false concept of salvation, and preached against it, and wrote against it:

Paidion You stated:

  • Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain. (2 Corinthians 6:1)*

Again, I must coöperate with the enabling grace of God, or I will fail to be delivered from sin. Where faith comes in (in the salvation process) is where we trust Christ to go on delivering us from wrongdoing. THIS was the purpose of his death and resurrection:

Dear friend, it might be good to really do a thorough reading of Galatians.
We don’t cooperate with God to save ourselves by doing things. It is God Who saves us. “If we are saved by works then we have something to boast in but not toward God.”

“If we sin, grace is superexceeding” Paul wrote. And he said we shouldn’t sin to get more grace. But we do because we are sinners saved by grace.

Our will of the flesh is at war with the will of the spirit. . . lest you may do what you want.

When one finally comes to the point in one’s walk where they rely 100% on God as their Saviour, then there is an inner peace. Sure, we should be about good works. But knowing good works do not save us. They are just the fruit of the spirit working in us. But maybe I misunderstood you?

Bingo!

That’s what those who teach that we “just need to trust in the finished work of Christ” always think that those who teach true salvation are saying—that we hold to “works righteousness.” That is not the case. You are probably referring to:

For if Abraham was made righteous (“justified”) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. (Romans 4:2)

Paul was talking about those Jews of his day who thought they were righteous through keeping the law of Moses. Paul was saying that to the degree they succeeded, it was something to boast about.

However, this same Paul taught “working together with Him, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.” It is necessary to have a part in our salvation from sin. If we do nothing, God will not save us from sin. If we attempt to be righteous by our own efforts, we will not succeed in being consistently righteous. Alone, we CANNOT do it. God alone WILL NOT do it. But God and we together CAN do it. This is why Christ died:

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 …he has appeared once for all at the end of the age for the abolition of sin by the sacrifice of himself.

“If your preaching of the gospel of God’s free grace in Jesus Christ does not provoke the charge from some of antinomianism, you’re not preaching the gospel of the free grace of God in Jesus Christ.” ― D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones