Paidion, From the Catechism of the Catholic Church
As we can see there’s a mystical union Christ enters into with the “world”. This is how our sins become His. He voluntarily takes on the sin of the world. That’s not the child sacrifices of Moloch. Moreover, the sins of all His people is a HUGE amount of sin. We should expect the suffering to be so severe. Especially since it lasted for only a few hours. He took on all evil. As for the wrath of God Greg Boyd puts it perfectly:
Paidion, thanks for bringing this up. I totally agree with your quote here of George MacDonald.
( P.S. I noticed that you said “he” in your previous post. Just wanted to let you know I am a she 
)
Jeff, Jesus’ death on the cross does not make us righteous. You say that “Christ suffered and died the death that we deserve”. So what is this death that we all deserve? Is it a violent physical death? If this be the case, then many have already paid the price for sin. If Jesus was made sin in our place, which according to you merits “complete separation and eternal damnation from God”, then is He now serving this eternal sentence for us? I would think that if Jesus was “made sin”, we would not be able to hide behind His righteousness.
Hey LLC,
We are crucified with Christ baptized into His death and risen to new life. I have this up already but I’ll share it with you. It was my experience:
The Holy Grail
The scales of justice balance in September
As Michael crushes Satan’s head in death
Ego is cast out, the new self is in union with Christ
Flames of torment destroy the self of the old
I stand on this Holy Mountain of God crucified
Baptized into water, death, and fire, I’m made new
The cup of the Holy Grail infuses precious stones within
As I become drunk on the Beautiful cup of blood
Victory reigns at the core in the Holy land of Eden
In celebration of the marriage with the Lamb
I have fallen madly in love with love
At the cross Satan was defeated in the spirit realm by Michael the archangel. I wasn’t aware that he was a guardian and protector of the Eucharist until after I wrote “The Holy Grail” poem above. For the Christian the “Holy Grail” is the Eucharist or coming into union with Christ. That is, falling in love with agape. Here’s what Mother Mary said in an apparition on September 25 in the 90’s (on my birthday) in Medjugorje. I found this out after I wrote “The Holy Grail” poem above:
Today I invite you to fall in love with Jesus in the most holy sacrament. Adore Him…Jesus will become your friend.
And this. I also wrote this. Hope this helps:
Union
In union with you upon the cross
As love’s arrow pierces my heart
I die to myself and suffer loss
Then given a new life and start
Buried to my old self I then rise
Vision is now clear as I can see
New self reflects in Your eyes
The person I am and want to be
Looking deeper into Your face
Beauty becomes brighter inside
With no more wrath only grace
In union with You I now confide
Friend, that is the essence of Christian faith, that Christ is our righteousness. Consider Philippians 3:1-11. I invite you to place your faith in Christ and become a Christian. Rejoice that even as a sinner you stand perfectly righteous before God… in Christ!
The focus is not physical death, but eternal spiritual death. To be put away from God’s presence. That will happen for all those outside of Christ at final judgment. I just happen to believe all mankind is in Christ 
and so not one human being will be lost to eternal separation from God.
No. See above.
No. Christ served the sentence for the entirety of mankind’s sin, past, present, and future sin on the cross. You can see for yourself that God made Christ to be sin and that cursed is anyone that is hung on a tree. However, Christ is now raised to the Father’s right hand. Christ is no longer sin or cursed, but instead raised to the highest and now praised eternally.
The New Testament explains the most wonderful ‘in’ doctrine. Why would you scorn the protection of Christ by saying ‘hide behind his righteousness’? You do not appear to be grateful for the protection we have ‘in Christ.’ You should instead be very thankful, for without the protection of Christ the holiness of God could not withstand the presence of your least blemish! However, instead we are ‘in’ Christ and Christ is ‘in’ us. So we are sinners, but being ‘in’ Christ our sin is hidden from God’s holy wrath against sin. Further, Christ is ‘in’ believers, empowering us to accomplish his will. Do you object to Jesus being made sin as our vicarious substitute. Your argument then is not with me, but with God’s word for 2 Cor 5:21 could not be more plain.
Where are these questions coming from? All these answers are in the Bible.
I doubt that Lloyd-Jones is talking about #2 below in the definitions:
Definition of antinomian. 1 : one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation. 2 : one who rejects a socially established morality.
I have quite a number of books by Lloyd-Jones and like his style.
Is Lloyd-Jones saying: “If one preaches the Gospel of grace and no one says: what you are preaching is a licence to sin, then you are preaching the true grace of Christ”?
Of course, Paul would never say if we are under grace we can sin as much as we want. But Paul would not say that if we are under grace that we must do such and such to save ourselves.
Hi jeff, it seems we have a lot in common. However, I can’t find in the Scriptures that mankind deserve eternal separation from God.
Prior to the giving of the law, Adam got a physical dying condition, not eternal separation from God. In fact, God continued to commune with them.
Likewise with Cain, who, instead of eternal separation was forced away from Adam’s family area.
Under the Law, there was no curse of eternal separation from God if they disobeyed.
In the New Testament there is also no mention of eternal separation. But there is much said about death, real physical death and dying passed on to humanity due to what Adam did (see Romans 5; 1 Cor.15).
But God did send His Son into the world to save the world through the cross. When God’s Son was sacrificed, the old humanity was put to death. Christ’s death was not a punishment for humanity. Christ’s death was a sacrifice for humanity.
Just saw this on FaceBook. Though not part of this thread, still, I thought it interesting:
Thank you for that information, LLC. Having no way of knowing your gender, I used the masculine “he” in a grammatical way. But now that I know, I will henceforth refer to you appropriately as “she.”
Thanks Paidion
Jeff, I do read the Bible, but to me, it does not say what you are saying. For one thing I don’t believe in the penal substitution theory. From what I understand, God never required a human sacrifice in order to be forgiven of sin. The following verses say this:
Zechariah 1:3 “Return to Me, says the Lord of hosts, and I will return to you.”
Nehemiah 1:9 “but if you return to Me, and keep My commandments and do them, though some of you were cast out to the farthest part of the heavens, yet I will gather them from there, and bring them to the place which I have chosen as a dwelling for My name.”
Job 22:23 “if you return to the Almighty, you will be built up; you will remove iniquity far from you tents.”
Hosea 6:1 “Come, and let us return to the Lord; for He has torn , but He will heal us; He has stricken, but he will bind us up.”
Isaiah 15:19 “If you return, then I will bring you back; you shall stand before Me.”
According to you, Jesus paid the price for all of our sins and now we are all made righteous because of it. However, the Bible says differently.
John 9:41 "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, “We see’, Therefore your sin remains.”
Hebrews 10:26 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’
law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.”
Acts 3:19 "Repent therefore and be converted, that you sins may be blotted out, so that the times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. Verse 22-23: "For Moses truly said to the fathers, “The Lord you God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”
LLC, so how to you understand 2 Cor 5:21?
and Hebrews 10:12
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Cor 5:21 ESV)
My guess is that she understands the above passage much the same way as George MacDonald did, and as I do.
What did McDonald mean by that? That is the truth that we are ‘hidden in Christ’ and thus God the Father sees us as if we were righteous like Christ. However, as sinners we are far from the perfection of Christ in of ourselves.
The key phrase of the verse for our question is ‘on behalf of’, strongs G5228, ‘hyper’. The accepted understanding is ‘on behalf of’. So how did Christ being made sin by God the Father serve us? What is the value of Christ being made to be sin? We understand the gospel to say that Christ was condemned in our place as a substitute. What is it you are saying again? How did Christ being made sin then make us righteous like God?
As an aside Paidon your previous post was #666 in this thread. Good thing we are not superstitious!
He meant that we might be actually righteous as God is actually righteous—not merely positionally righteous as you believe (God the Father sees us as if we were righteous like Christ). Many who believe like you, think that God is blinded to our true character because of the “robe of righteousness” which has been thrown around us because of what Christ has thrown around us so that God cannot see our sinful ways.
George MacDonald himself explains what he meant. This is what he wrote in the context of that which you quoted above:
I have always loathed that bit of legalism by which God supposedly pulls a lawyer’s trick to fool Himself into thinking that evil men are good. I want to really be good, not merely be regarded as good. Here is one of my favorite passages from my favorite George MacDonald sermon, “Justice”:
I particularly love this sentence: “I will not have the God of the scribes and the pharisees whether Jewish or Christian, protestant, Roman, or Greek, but thy father, O Christ!”
I agree with that one Paidion. I hold to the Catholic view of infused righteousness now. Not imputed.
St. Michael: “Infused righteousness”? Does this require our coöperation with God? Or not?
Geoffrey: That is a great GMD quote that I don’t recall having read. Which book of MacDonald’s is the source? Please let me know the chapter in that book as well.
Yes it is cooperation. But it’s by God’s grace. We are not justified by faith alone as it says in James. But there’s still a union. And while I believe in predestination I believe you can fall away. Hence the warnings in the Bible. But they are there to keep you in line. I believe in a predestination to salvation and a predestination to glory. Just because you are in union with Christ doesn’t mean you can’t leave. You have to keep at it or you will wonder. That’s been my experience anyway and it fits the Bible. We don’t reach perfect union until we get to heaven. Unless you have been canonized as a saint or something. But I’m not a saint in that sense. I’m a child of God and a saint in that sense.
Thanks St. Michael. Your explanation is very similar to the way I see it.
However, I don’t think “predestine” is a good translation of the Greek verb “προοριζω” (pro-orizō). This verb is composed of the prefix “προ” (before) and the root word “ὁριζω” (horizō). This nominal form of the root word comes from ancient Greek —“ὁριζων” (horizōn). Our English word “horizon” is a direct transliteration of the ancient Greek noun. So the idea of “προοριζω” is to set boundaries beforehand. So translators thought “predestine” would indicate that God had sent boundaries to behaviour. But in our day “predestine” indicates a sort of fatalism when a person cannot avoid taking the course in life that he was fated to take.
In my opinion, the word should be translated as “pre-appointed.” God has pre-appointed people to take a particular course in life. But as we all know, if someone makes an appointment to see a doctor or dentist, he doesn’t necessarily keep that appointment. Likewise though God has appointed our course beforehand, we not necessarily follow it. If we do, we will have the best life possible, but if we don’t we will lose out in one or more ways.