The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Paidion, Geoffrey, St. Michael, thanks for the words well spoken.

As has been mentioned, God cannot be blinded. This reminds me of the story of Jacob and Esau, in which Jacob tries to pull the wool over his father’s eyes, so to speak, by putting on hairy hands and lying about his identity in order to receive the blessing. It does not work this way. I am a firm believer in teaching a man to fish. This is what Jesus spent his life doing, teaching us the way of righteousness. One cannot simply cover for someone else. Either we stand on our own two feet as righteous before God or we do not.

With man it is impossible but with God all things are possible. Matt 19 v 36 Mark 10 v 27. Extrapolate that with our God of relentless love and see where that leads you?

I see it like this, for whatever it may be worth :slight_smile:

If Christ is in us, we are righteous. The righteousness that is in us, is in us because we died(I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:- Gal.), fulfilling the law, when we embraced Christ crucified. We were raised back to life when we saw Christ raised. (If you believe that God raised Christ from the dead). His Lordship is growing in us as we abide in Him(and confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord). Man looks on the outward appearance. God looks on the heart.

“The Lord knows those who are His, and let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from wickedness”(Tim somewhere) Evryone who loves Him has departed wickedness, but to depart is a journey that takes time, and sometimes depends on where we are departing from.

“If out hearts condemn us, God is greater than our heart and sees all things.”(1 John 3) God knows who has departed from wickedness in their hearts and who hasnt, and that is often not obvious on the surface. He knows if we sin because of confusion or weakness or misunderstanding or bondage or oppression. He knows if we despise our sin or love it. He can empower us to walk in the Spirit, but, many do not understand the power of the Spirit and many hav been taught against it.

“If we confess our sins God is faithful to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness”(1 John 2) Every time we confess we reaffirm that death. Every time we confess we re-affirm, in our own conscience that we submit to the righteousness of Christ in our hearts, that we love Him,- and God knows when we are sincere, and He knows that even when people loathe their sin, for various reasons, they sometimes cannot overcome. Whether we believe in a loose reign on the will of man or a tight one, we are called to appeal to God for deliverance, so their is an interaction there that must come within the bounds of any view(imo) in order for the scriptures to make sense.

Man’s will, execized by him, cannot triumph over God’s fore ordained plan that all things will come under subjection to His love- under any view. But in the moment, we must believe that He loves us and forgives us or we fall under(often self-inflicted) condemnation. Where we are in error about what is displeasing to Him or not, we will receive further illumination from Him in some way along the way.

For certain, the power is in the forgiveness first. The desire to change comes from the love His forgiveness engenders- and the power of that love effects the change, not will power. Cart before the horse Christianity leaves forgiven people cut-off from the power of their salvation through accusation in the conscience and self-condemnation. Receiving forgiveness unleashes the power of the Spirit to overcome.

Condemnation sucks the life out, but can only abide for a limited time. Eventually all accusation will fall to the glory of the cross and what He has done through it.

Christ in us is the hope of glory. Becuase He lives in me, I am righteous, because God sees that my heart is His. If I commit sin, it is because sin is still working in my members, but they are being mortified daily partially though the trials and disciplines of the Lord, but mainly because His radiant love is drawing me and filling me. With my mind I agree with the law of God that it is good.

This is because Christ is in my mind since I gave Him my heart. God sees the finished work, but like a Potter, His hands may be heavy on me at times, because He knows what He is making better than I do. I may only see my failure, but ALL that man does to be righteous is failure, if it is not rising out of, and abiding in that humble dependence on “His righteousness in me” through forgiveness, which made the original connection(return to your first love) and made me the righteousness of God in Christ.

Sometimes I wonder if everyone will be shown what their lives could have been if they had yielded to God(Gehenna, LOF), just before they are given the life that will far exceed anything they could ask or think through His forgiveness.

It’s interesting that the Protestant site Got Questions, has a summary at gotquestions.org/Book-of-2-Corinthians.html. It might be interesting, to share it here:

They(the Protestant site Got Questions) also have an interesting response at gotquestions.org/imputed-righteousness.html

And at gotquestions.org/how-does-God-see-me.html

And from gotquestions.org/new-creation.html

Abraham was declared to be righteous by God even when Abraham wasn’t actually righteous. And this was just because Abraham believed God. God reckoned it to him for righteousness. Paul stated this in Romans chapter 4. And in the same chapter, Paul used the illustration of faith and righteousness as equivalent of those who believe God that Christ died for our offenses, was entombed and roused from the dead. Yes, we are declared righteous. “God calls what is not as if it were,” as Abraham declares in Romans 4. We are declared righteous even if we are still sinners. God sees us as being in Christ. We are in Christ.
Does this mean God does not discipline us when we do wrong? No. Just read 1Co 11:32 “Yet, being judged, we are being disciplined by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.”

Christ did not die to save believers or humanity from needful, loving correction.

We have tossed the words imputed and infused righteousness. Here are the Wiki definitions:

imputed righteousness

infused righteousness

Here’s the Eastern Orthodox response at God’s “Righteousness”

Here’s a segment regarding the author:

That is from my favorite George MacDonald sermon, “Justice”. :slight_smile:

Your suggested translations often bless me, Paidion. Thank you very much for this. I’m going to ponder “pre-appointed”.

Unsurprisingly, I agree with that. Western notions of salvation never sat well with me. When I first read of the Orthodox Church’s doctrine of theosis/deification, I thought to myself, “Of course!”

I have found, unfortunately, that many people cannot grasp the teaching, fruitlessly trying to place it somewhere on the spectrum between the popular notions of works-righteousness on the one hand, and salvation by faith alone on the other. I’ve basically given up. :slight_smile:

That links to an excellent article, thanks. I will save that in my desktop folder; I’m sure I will need it again. Especially helpful was the clarification of the concept of theosis.

I’m always curious why some must go to what this church or that church believes about any certain doctrine such as righteousness for the believer. Not that that is necessarily wrong. It is certainly good to see how others see these things.

But for me, it is just so very simple that I don’t really need to go to anyone else to see the glaring facts of the matter. All Abraham did was believe God and God reckoned it to him for righteousness in Romans 4. And Paul used that example of people believing God that Christ died because of our offenses, was entombed and roused the third day. Likewise, God reckons righteousness to us. It really is that simple.

It seems to me that theologians often bury these very simple truths by their long-winded verbiage. It ain’t difficult. It is so simple. But that’s just it. It is so simple, it passes right over the wise. Don’t make it so hard friends.

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Which is really the Protestant doctrine of imputed righteousness - right? Or do you disagree with that perspective? Just curious. :slight_smile:

Imputed righteousness - as Wiki defines it:

I think that often theological terms cloud truths and help to keep people from seeing the simplicity of the evangel/good news. For instance, the Bible does not say “imputed righteousness.” It says “God reckoned righteousness to him [Abraham] just because he believed God.” It is just that simple. And it is likewise just as simple that, in Romans 4:23-25, we are reckoned righteous for merely believing God concerning the evangel. It is just that simple. No heavy tomes of dusty old massive books from hoary-headed theologians are needed . . . just believe God.

Righteousness is not reckoned by doing works for us of the nations.
James, who wrote to the Circumcision Jews would disagree. But we of the nations are not Circumcision Jews so it does not apply to us.

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It seems to me that when some people think they are reading St. Paul the Martyr and Apostle, they are really reading Augustine of Hippo. (This statement is not directed towards any particular individual.)

Eusebius, you seem to be saying either that this sentence affirms that Abraham’s faith was reckoned to him in place of righteousness, or that that faith was itself righteousness. But that is not what Paul wrote. He wrote:

ελογισθη———— αυτου εις———δικαιοσυνην
It was counted to him toward righteousness.

The preposition εις that often means “into” is also used before a noun that depicts a goal. Righteousness is the goal.
To achieve that goal, there must be a beginning to the action. Abraham’s faith was the beginning.

The same thing with us. Verse 5:
And to the one who does not work but trusts him who makes righteous the ungodly, his faith is counted toward righteousness

Our trust in Him is the first step of righteousness. By the enabling grace of God, we must follow through and actually display righteousness in our lives!

The “work” to which Paul refers in this verse is not works of righteousness. It is the works of the Mosaic law. The Jews were trying to be righteous by fulfilling the law. That is not the path to righteousness. The path begins with faith, and results in deeds of righteousness, and avoidance of wrongdoing.

Paul’s later reference to “the righteousness of faith” indicates the righteousness that results from faith—real righteousness, actual righteousness—not merely positional righteousness, while we continue in sin.

Dear Paidion,
Don’t make it more difficult than it is.
The Greek word “εις” is “into” or “for” in English. The Greek word “προς” should be “toward.”
Rom_4:3 For what is the scripture saying? Now “Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for εις righteousness.”
I never said either of your propositions above. I am saying that because Abraham merely believed God, that God reckoned righteousness to him.

Here it is in its simplicity:
God told Abraham
Rom 4:17 “according as it is written that, A father of many nations have I appointed you - facing which, he believes it of the God Who is vivifying the dead and calling what is not as if it were -”

And abraham believed God concerning that. And God basically said: You believe me. I (God) reckon you to be righteous.

Now Paul uses that and applies the same to believers in Romans 4:23-25.

Here, I’ll prove it to you:
Now it was not written because of him only, that it is reckoned to him, but because of us also, to whom it is about to be reckoned,*** who are believing on Him Who*** rouses Jesus our Lord from among the dead." Who was given up because of our offenses, and was roused because of our justifying." (Rom 4:23-25)

So Paul used Abraham believing God as an example of us believing God. And righteousness is reckoned to Abraham without him doing anything to earn it and believers are reckoned righteous without having to do anything to earn it.

Right after verse 25 we have:
Rom 5:1 Being, then, justified by faith, we may be having peace toward God, through our Lord, Jesus Christ,

We are justified or righeousified.

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I haven’t made it more difficult than it is. Rather, you have over-simplified it.
It is true that “προς” means “toward” but “εις” also means “toward” in the sense of moving toward the fulfillment of a purpose.

The Online Bible Program gives the following meanings of “εις” as

The New American Standard Greek Lexicon says the following about “εις”:

Notice that it says that the preposition “εις” is used figuratively to mean “purpose or result.” That is basically what I was saying in my post—that righteousness is the result of faith.

Strong’s Greek Concordance basically says the same thing about the preposition

It takes years of study to become familiar with the various nuances of Greek. It isn’t as simple as supposing each Greek word to have a unique meaning.

Hi Paidion, you said:

I will ask this question with all sincerity and honesty, and to be truthful, having nothing to do with the subject at hand. Are the English speaking bible students able to figure out what the word of God means, in it’s English form? :blush:

MM, I think English-speaking Bible students who have no knowledge of Koine Greek can find out a lot by referring to the works of those who have studied these things in Greek. However, those who have spent years in the study of Koine Greek do have a distinct advantage.