The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Evangelical Universalism
#66

It’s psychologists’ studies - over several years - not study (which implies many). If there are flaws in their experiments and designs - rest assured - their fellow researchers, academics and scholars, will be quick to find them and point them out. And make it public knowledge, in their academic journals and corresponding newspaper stories - for the laity (if it is newsworthy).

For what it’s worth, I have a masters in psychology from Norwich University and a Black Belt in Statistical methodology from Motorola And I have worked with Motorola’s electrical and mechanical engineers, doing research and experiments. I can read through the psychology experiments and conclusions and understand them - if needed. Researchers deal with statistics and population samples. They are staying that statistically, more folks are happy, if they believe in free will. It’s like saying that statistically, a broken arm or leg, would heal in 6-8 weeks. For some, it could take much less. For others, it could take much more. But the average is in 6-8 weeks (if memory serves me correctly).

It really does matter if I have free will or not. If I know how to influence my experience of reality via thoughts, feelings and prayer, what does it matter? And folks can find out if this is true or not for themselves, if they wish to undertake the research and experimentation. It really boils down to the Grace of God and being created in God’s image - however flawed our mirrors currently are. If you wish to find out how to “get in the groove - so to speak”, study the Eastern Orthodox tradition of Theosis.

Or to put it another way. If Christ died for all (and health and prosperity are part of the benefits), anyone can collect - if they know how. And here’s an obvious truth. It doesn’t involve sending a big donation, to a TV health and prosperity evangelist. If you wish to know more, then watching Joel Osteen weekly on TV - is a good start.

And if you study the lives of Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox saints (as well as saints of other religious traditions) - guess what? The rabbit hole goes very deep - as the Matrix movies would say. (i.e. the YouTube video of a Native American medicine man at Native Healing) :smiley:

And we can side with this conclusion, from Miracles (where Allah is the Arabic word for God. And if Christ died for all, do you think God only grants the gift to perform miracles, to just RC and EO saints?):

Or to quote form a story of science (see Phrase Origins: What do people mean when they say “it’s turtles all the way down”?).

Hypothetically, one could embrace John Calvin theologically and Arthur Schopenhauer philosophically - and be immensely happy. I really would have no idea why. But it is very possible :exclamation: :laughing:

#67

1] Determinism could say that your effort is of His doing, as in “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Phil.2:13). He gave you the “want to” to want Him. You didn’t create this or give this to yourself. It was His gift, not of works, not of yourselves, lest any man boast (Eph.2:8-10a):

"8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus

“Then he answered and spoke to me, saying, This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, said the LORD of hosts.”

2] Of course in determinism no such things, in fact nothing, is up to man’s “wishes” in the sense of him having an independence free of all causation. No more than the apes, dolphins, dogs, other animals or Nebuchadnezzar when God made him like a beast of the field.

  1. Why couldn’t such things fit in determinism like anything else that happens in the history of the world, good or evil? Personally i have experienced similar things as a “vessel” who was “moved” by the Holy Spirit, but would not presume that i had a cause for boasting or self glory or superiority over others (which leads to destruction) in this.

  2. That is of the gifts and grace of God. Does one earn those by an act of freewill determination.

If determinism is true, how can that be circumvented?

Could Saul “the worst of sinners” have dogded hearing the Lord’s voice and being blinded?

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#68

Suppose someone has the gift of prophesy and they tell me not to fly on a certain plane, date, time and trip. I don’t take the trip and the plane crashes, killing all aboard. Is this determinism, that I would encounter that person and they gave me the message? If that’s the case, I’m pretty “lucky” in my life - with spirituality and being lead to the right people.

And if everything is determinism, then who has the correct philosophical and theological model? That of the researchers, who say that free will is an illusion and it’s due to brain activity? Spinoza.? John Calvin? Etc.?

Actually, If christian determinism is true, why wouldn’t God hide the answer in brain activity, so we can verify “free will illusion” by scientific experiments?

I really avoid the free will, determinism debate (which has been going on for centuries, by the way), by saying it’s really “turtles all the way down.”. :laughing:

#69

I believe in God’s sovereignty but am not a Calvinist. I believe in Christ’s death for our sins but am not a Christian. I am a believer. I believe in the absolute sovereignty of God but am not miserable at all. I find it rather liberating to believe the truth. In fact, what is so bad about Christ being the Head of the body where He is in charge of all its functionality? If you are a finger and the Head wants the body to be resurrected and meet the Lord in the air, can you, being the finger oppose His will in the matter? Just how much Divinity do you ascribe to your will as a finger? Is your will greater than God’s?

Okay, so what have you to say concerning Christ being the Head of the body?
What have you to say to the truth that “the flesh wars against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh lest you may do whatever you want”?

Let’s see where the rubber meets the road on this shall we?

I hardly see how one could be happy being fully invested in the falsehood of free will knowing it was all up to the holder of such a view? How’s that working out for you?

And just what do you think of Christ being the Head of the body? Do you really think He lets the body have free will apart from the Head of the body? Now stupid do you think He is, anyway? Does He have a sort of zombie body completely out of His control where He can’t walk or talk or do what He wants with His own body? Geesh! We need a little smilie of someone hitting themselves in the head.

#70

Perhaps these studies would have shown a completely different result with Christians only.

When it comes to punishing others for their evil deeds, i’d think freewillists would tend to be more vindictive and sadistic whereas determinists would be more understanding & lean more towards corrective chastening & medicines, for the good of the offender.

Calvinists would have less cause for boasting in their salvation than Arminians who obtained it through an act of freewill and superiority of choice over those who did not make the same choice.

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#71

:question: GOOD CHANCE :question:

Rom 14:11
New American Standard Bible
For it is written, “AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.”

Philippians 2:10-11New King James Version

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

WOW… Now that is GOOD NEWS :exclamation: :smiley:

#72

What a splendid idea. I do know some professors from Wheaten College (i.e. home of Rev Billy Graham) and they do have a PhD program in clinical psychology. I have to pass on the suggestion sometime. And what would you say, if their research produced the same results :question:

Free will doesn’t mean doing whatever you wish. All Christian theologians and most philosophers, throw in a component of morality and ethics. Same goes for all true Christian and non-Christian saints.

Great. Couldn’t complain. All the Christian churches I visit, attend and watch on TV - believe in Free Will. The Christians i meet, are very happy on the surface.

You might. I don’t. And I don’t think the majority of Christian theologians, believing in free will - do either. When I think of head hitting, Moe and Curly (of the Three Stooges) comes to mind.

Actually, If christian determinism is true, why wouldn’t God hide the answer in brain activity, so we can verify “free will illusion” by scientific experiments?

Anyway, I might not be able to continue this dialogue until tomorrow. It’s been determined that i need to watch Star Trek and some other non-redeeming shows tonight,. :laughing:

Remember this. It’s not about free will vs determinism. Or which came first: the chicken of the egg? The correct answer is “Turtles all the way down”.

#73
  1. Relative to this momentary lifetime some appear luckier than others. Relative to the endless future all will be blessed with, the sufferings of this life are like a drop in a single ocean of infinite universes full of oceans.

2/3. Certainly not Hilary, Augustine or Calvin. I’m in the dark re many things, including the freewill/determinism debate.

#75

I would think it would be liberating that God, not i, is responsible for my sins. Guilt is removed & all the negatives associated with it.

Also with God determining everything universal salvation is not in doubt or left up to the whim of fickle human will.

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#76

qaz said:

Yes. It is prima facie evidence for universalism. But there is prima facie evidence in the Bible for hopeless punishment too.
Please tell me about the evidence for hopeless punishment. :open_mouth:

#77

It is not clear to me whether the above quote is from Eusebius or from Zander. In any case, the second sentence, if true, implies that God is the source of all evil. To me this is a gross misrepresentation of the character of One whose essence is pure LOVE. (1 John 4:8,16)

#78

So you mean God is going to resurrect them against their wills and be forced against their wills to confess and God will go against their will and punish them? :wink:

But what if some use their free will and protest “Hell no! We won’t go!” “Hell no! We won’t go!”?

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#79

“Hath evil overtaken a city and Yahweh not done it?”

Rev 17:17 for God imparts to their hearts to form His opinion, and to form one opinion, and to give their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God shall be accomplished."

If God didn’t love mankind, He would not chasten them with evil.

God it was Who planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden. Man has been learning from that ever since because it is what God wanted.
You see, dear friend, people love to think they are in charge of God’s universe.

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#80

http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/americanbuddhist/files/2014/02/kermit-xray-free-will-cartoon.jpg

Fortunately, It was **determined **last night, that I should watch:

Father Brown (the English Catholic priest, who is also as much of a detective as Sherlock Holmes)
Some show about a fighter on Spanish TV

I really miss it when the don’t have Chinese Kung-Fu movies, dubbed in Spanish. They are in the same category as Laurel and Hardy, The Marx Brothers and The Three Stooges. :laughing:

I tapped deep into my bag of Holy Fool theology and P-Zombie philosophy. I decided to be pragmatic and came up with some final thoughts

The debate between free will and determinism (involving theologians and philosophers), has been going on for centuries. It won’t be settled here - anytime soon (see videos in this post).
We should side with determinism, chiefly based upon the current brain research. They demonstrate the “illusion of free will” (see Column: Why you don’t really have free will and Do we have Free Will).
We should continue to believe in free will, based upon current research in psychology. Statistically, it will make us more creative, productive, happy and helpful (see There’s No Such Thing as Free Will).
In the worlds of Quantum Mechanics (see The Quantum Physics of Free Will) and **true **Spiritually (see Miracles and Native Healing), the world that is inside out can become outside in. And what is right side up, can become upside down. There’s only one possible answer: “it’s turtles all the way down”.

Note: These videos briefly summarizes the philosophical history of free will vs determinism, in a creative way - without choosing sides.


Also at:

youtube.com/watch?v=xS8rSJr9bhI
youtube.com/watch?v=vCGtkDzELAI

I do realize I present a different view of Christianity from most here. And from most in the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant worlds. It’s a view based upon the visions of contemporary Old Catholic mystic, Tiffany Snow. It’s a vision I found to be in harmony with contemporary, mainstream theological trends, as well as Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition. It’s a vision where Christ saves all - regardless of religion. Where their is no fiery hell, where the health and prosperity gospel is incorporated, where Christ is present in the Eucharist, where God wishes to bestow spiritual gifts and there are postmortem salvation opportunities. It’s a version of hopeful universalism - but not guaranteed. The endpoint occurs sometime down the road; we are fighting against real demons and are co-creators of our reality (with the help of Christ and the holy angels). It’s a position that embraces an Inclusivist (Positions for the Lost) and a Purgatorial Conditionalist viewpoint. It’s a viewpoint where any scriptural mention of hell, purification and Hades, is metaphorical. And ethics and morality play a key role. It works for me and it’s in harmony, with my own investigations into spiritual healing, saints, healers, and miracles.

I do hope that one of the forum universalist positions, that actually saves all - is correct. But mine is close and it’s very optimistic. :smiley:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_uU99eQfKRF8/S--VSXRt21I/AAAAAAAABG4/dRg0wKzcZ-Q/s1600/illusion[3].png

So unless folks come up with objections, these are my final thoughts on this matter. :exclamation: :laughing:

#81

I’m surprised this type of comment didn’t arise earlier in this thread. It’s similar to one that atheists often present re the many evils and horrific things that Love Omnipotent allows or causes. And atheists say this without any regard to whether God has given man freewill or not, but probably generally under the assumption that there is freewill.

Was God not the source of the flood in Noah’s day?

Do not violent rapes and other horrors occur every day that Love Omnipotent could easily stop, but chooses not to? If you can easily stop such an evil but refuse to, then you are just as guilty as the evil doer who directly committed the crime. It’s called sin of ommission.

Yet God does not sin, even if He is the allower, or the direct or indirect source, or cause of any evil or even all evils or sins that happen.

Why? Because sin is missing the mark & Love Omnipotent the determinist never misses but always hits his target dead on.

Why? Because God is working & is able to work all things together for good.

Why? Relative to this momentary lifetime some appear luckier than others. Relative to the endless future all will be blessed with, the sufferings of this life are like a drop in a single ocean of infinite universes full of oceans.

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#82

The worst crime ever to take place in the universe was the murder of God’s perfect, spotless Son. And God made sure He would be murdered and helped make sure it was done. God’s will in the matter trumped all others. I can supply Scripture to back this up but I’m sure people think more highly of their philosophies rather than God’s word. So why bother?

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#83

Moses wrote that God said He would bring such a flood upon the earth (Gen 6:17)
Moses also wrote that God gave laws to stone to death adulteresses and rebellious children, and to cut off the hand of any woman who tries to defend her husband from a man who is getting the best of a fight with him, by grabbing his genitals. However, Moses had a huge responsibility to oversee all those Israelites. I have no doubt that he often came up with solutions that he thought God had spoken to his heart, but was mistaken. There’s no doubt in my mind that a world-wide flood occurred. It is not only recorded in the Bible, but the story occurs in the traditions of many different peoples throughout the world, and those traditions are essentially the same as that which is recorded in the Bible. However, I am not convinced that God deliberately brought about that flood, regardless of what Moses wrote. Notice that Jesus frequently quoted the Hebrew scriptures, but He never depicted God in the way that Moses did. Indeed, Jesus revealed the Father as He really is. He said that He is kind to ungrateful and evil people, and that if we do the same, we will truly demonstrate that we are the sons of the Father. I am convinced that Jesus gave us the true picture of the Father, and that some of the early Hebrew writers and leaders had only a partial revelation of God, and were sometimes mistaken.

Yes, God could stop those atrocities, and occasionally He does. But if He did so consistently, this would entail His overriding the free will of man. And that He never does that. Why not? As I see it He wants all people to become reconciled to Him and submit to Him of their own free will. That could not happen if He always prevented evil from occurring. God is not interested in having a race of robots.

I firmly disbelieve that God is the cause of any evil. It is blasphemy to affirm that He is.

Wrong. Sin is much more than missing the mark of perfection. Although “αμαρτια” originally meant “missing the mark” it came to mean any or all varieties of sin and wrongdoing.

That’s what the determinist thinks, and what makes him feel comfortable. The Calvinist cannot feel at ease unless he believes that God is in complete control and is the cause of every event. One of my son’s mother-in-law is a Calvinist. When driving in the car with her husband, the car hit a rock cut. Later on she mused, “I wonder what God had in mind by making that happen.”

This is a misunderstanding of the passage. It does not mean that God works together all events for some good or deeper purpose. It refers to God’s work within a person. He influences the person so that he progresses towards a good end. Consider the context:

We know that to those who love Him, God works everything together good—to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew He also pre-appointed to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom He pre-appointed, He also called; and those whom He called He also made righteous; and those whom He made righteous, He also glorified. Romans 8:28-30)

So we see that in the context, God does a work toward a good end. There is a progression: Those whom He knew beforehand to have willing hearts, He pre-appointed to be conformed to the image of His Son. A person does not necessarily keep an appointment. But if they do, He called them to righteousness. If they accepted the call, He made them righteous (with their coöperation, of course; He never forces people). Those whom He made righteous, He also glorified. Now no one is yet glorified, but that is the final step in the process, and so if God decides to do a thing, it is as good as done. An example of this is found in Hebrews 2:8," Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him."

This progression is also expressed in Philippians 1:6 “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.”

#84

If for the reason you gave, you won’t bother to supply the Scripture, why bother to post the above paragraph?

#85

Excellent post, Paidion!

#86

I agree. I do find that while I shared my Christian vision and summary thoughts earlier, I am really in harmony, with much of what Paidion shares these days. Allow me to present him with a big hand. :exclamation: :laughing:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSYpkYItyfvEdbKaO4tboCGpUgki2lKllLSLLcnpwy-S_DYlGYl109EEhlz

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQYhHxNfgecS4714_TqfEYAEonAOQizQtHPQtuJeF0ub_-E7x2Mjg

“It has been determined” that tonight I’ll watch the non-redeeming Zombie show, Fear the Walking Dead, on AMC And I, Frankenstein on the Sci Fi channel. I like this determinism stuff. It directs me to all the redeeming shows on TV. And what to share on the forum. :exclamation: :laughing:

Me thinks that some on this forum (without mentioning names and Paidion is not one), try to do this. :exclamation: :laughing:

youtube.com/watch?v=C2YZnTL596Q