The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Evangelical Universalism
#87

Oh well, it is Sunday evening where I am at and I must say I had a fabulous day at Worship this morning. I hope you each had or are having a similar experience, (depending on your time frame.)

I saw people with addictions, coming to the lord, a young man who was diagnosed with stage 4 leukemia and who has been going through chemotherapy and has been pronounced free of cancer, (he is 23 years old), Another person who is suffering from horrible psychotic episodes came to play the piano today, another whose marriage was thought by most to be down the toilet, has a ray of hope… We have a God who loves us.

He loves us and will help us. It is hard when we are thrust into scenarios that challenge our faith or even our belief, but we need to get out there with people and tell them about the God who sent us a redeemer, a God who has stepped up to the plate and loves us in such a manner that he sacrificed his son for us.

A very basic gospel message, but to be honest, it is the most effective one we can deliver.

I have noting more to say about this. :smiley:

#88

Fabulous reply, Paidon. As has this thread been in general. Also that was an intriguing viewpoint re the flood of Noah’s day.

  1. So you believe God occasionaly stops people from carrying out their freewill decisions, but usually He doesn’t? So you’re saying it’s ok for Him to sometimes over ride the freewill of man, but not always? In any case, this makes Him as guilty or responsible for the horrific acts as if He had committed the horror show all by Himself. And no less guilty or responsible than Love Omnipotent the determinist.

  2. How do you define evil? Did God bring evil upon Job when He loosed His pack of pitbulls, Satan, upon him? I am expecting another Noah’s flood type answer to this BTW.

  3. I think “missing the mark” covers all of those.

  4. See points 1,2,3 & 5.

  5. Interesting remarks re Rom.8:28, although no passage was cited, quoted or intended. But a principle was stated. Consider, for an example, Mt.25:46 where the word kolasis occurs, meaning in usage by Plato, Aristotle & ClementofA, etc, punishment for the good of the offender. This punishment is an example of God bringing something harsh, painful, perhaps horrific (perhaps we could even call it evil) upon people for their ultimate good.

Compare, for a few more examples amongst many in the Scriptures, biblical references to torment into the ages of the ages, weeping & gnashing of teeth in fire, better to have been drowned, etc.

#89

That’s what simple folk might call a ‘whole buttload of non-sequitur’.

Here’s a useful, if not comprehensive, definition of 'evil" from some online dictionary or another:

Profoundly immoral and malevolent.
“his evil deeds”
synonyms: wicked, bad, wrong, immoral, sinful, foul, vile, dishonorable, corrupt, iniquitous, depraved, reprobate, villainous, nefarious, vicious, malicious; More
noun
1.
profound immorality, wickedness, and depravity, especially when regarded as a supernatural force.
“the world is stalked by relentless evil”
synonyms: wickedness, bad, badness, wrongdoing, sin, ill, immorality, vice, iniquity, degeneracy, corruption, depravity, villainy, nefariousness, malevolence;

Which of those would possibly fit into the actions of the God revealed in Jesus Christ?
Or do we have other terminology to accuse Him with?

The baseline for many on this Forum over the years is - if God had not created at all, there would be no pain or evil.
But since He did create us, the least He could have done was to create us unfree, unable to sin. Which of course would make us less than we are now, but that is another line of thought.
In other words - in the end, it is all God’s fault. Even our sins are His fault. The problem of the world is God! Not.

This oldest of complaints is evergreen with each generation. It has not been answered to everyone’s satisfaction yet and will not be, even when we are in gladness and true humanity before Him and each other in the life after the life after death, perhaps.
But a couple of things are clear - it is us that fit the description of evil, not Him; and, this vale of tears will all be forgotten in the ages to come.

#90

I have an additional remark re this point.

If the evil rapist/torturer/sadist/murderer has already made a free will decision to do his thing, it is not a violation of this evil person’s
freewill [whether imaginary, a fairy tale, or true] to stop him from causing this suffering. After all, he has already made up his mind or
freewill to do this. Stopping him from committing this evil, therefore, does not stop the man’s freewill decision that has already been
made. It only stops the horror show that is about to commence. Therefore, why would the freewill loving Love Omnipotent have any
problem with stopping the horror show, since it is NEVER in violation of anyone’s freewill decision that has been already made, only a
violation of stopping them from carrying it out in the physical world.

I wonder what Origen or Tom Talbott, both free willys, would say in response to this. One thing that should be noted about ECF, though, is that they didn’t always say what they believed to be true, particularly to the immature. How many of Origen’s writings were changed or burned in the 1000 plus years of RCC freewill ECT terror after he was considerd a heretic in many regards?

“For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.” (1 Cor.13:12)

#91

DaveB said:

Should be etched on a stone some where. Pretty damn good. :astonished:

#92

Amen, brother. And folks do come to people who can preform miracles today…or can hold a charismatic healing service. And they can get healed of diseases, the doctors and medical tests deem incurable.

And folks can have the gift of prophesy. And they can warm people to avoid certain disastrous situations.

Why? Because it has all been determined for them to do so. Me thinks this all makes perfect sense.

I’m fully on-board with this determinism stuff. And I’ll try to help out brothers Origen and Eusebius here - to promote this idea :exclamation: :bulb: .

But I have also studied Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump and I’ll try to be politically correct. :laughing:

We should side with determinism, chiefly based upon the current brain research. They demonstrate the “illusion of free will” (see Column: Why you don’t really have free will and Do we have Free Will).
We should continue to believe in free will, based upon current research in psychology. Statistically, it will make us more creative, productive, happy and helpful (see There’s No Such Thing as Free Will).

Why? Because it has been determined that man would create science and follow the trail of scientific research and conclusions. :smiley:

But maybe there’s not enough brain research evidence yet - to prove determinism, as I came across this today:

How do I prove that humans have free will?

“It has been determined” that I, the resident Holy Fool theologian and P-Zombie philosopher, should do all I can to promote determinism. But continue to be “politically correct.” :exclamation: :laughing:

#93

Because folks will just fluff off the Scriptures as if nothing was said.

Do you believe God sent His Son into the world to die for sinners?

I will post a scripture concerning God’s hand in the crucifixion of Christ and see how it is just fluffed off:

Act 2:23 This One, given up in the specific counsel and foreknowledge of God, you, gibbeting by the hand of the lawless, assassinate,

Have you not read that Jesus was God’s approach present to sacrifice to bring peace?
Also Abraham sacrificing his son is a picture of God sacrificing His Son as are the sacrifices in the Old Testament.

God’s love for mankind caused Him to give His only begotten So to death (see John 3:16).

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#94

Evil need not have connotations of wickedness or sinfulness, immorality, iniquitous, depraved ect. associated with it especially when God brings the evil.
In fact, the Bible says it is God Who created the evil in His universe:
**
“Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things”** (Isa 45:7).

And yet God did nothing sinful in so doing. He does evil that good will come.

But God did create us in bondage. He created His entire universe in bondage.
"For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation" that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God" (Rom 8:20-21).

But God always has a great reason for doing so and a goal which is for the good of all.

God created humanity flesh knowing full well in advance that “the flesh cannot please God” and “is not subject to His law” And “the flesh is enmity to God” (see Romans 8). Now why did He stack the deck against Adam? God created Adam flesh and soulish. God planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the very middle of the garden so the primal pair would not miss it. God created the crafty serpent. God created the woman flesh and soulish and weaker than the man. God set down the law in the Garden: “Thou shalt not eat of the tree of . . .” knowing full well in advance Adam was not subject to His law and could not please Him. Was that fair? If not, by whose standard? Of course it is fair. Right after the pair sinned God told them about the Saviour.

Or how about Judas. Jesus commanded Judas to hurry up and do what had to be done in giving Him up. Then, God had Satan enter Judas to ensure the job got done in a timely manner. Judas could not do otherwise. He had no free will in the matter.

Peter stated concerning Judas:

"For it is written in the scroll of the Psalms, Let his domicile become desolate, And let no one be dwelling in it, and ‘Let his supervision be taken by another’ " Act 1:20.

God is responsible for what occurs in His universe. Humans sin because they are made of flesh. They can’t please God and are not subject to His law because He made them that way. So yes, God is fully responsible. And He is fully responsible to fix the situation by putting the old humanity to death in the death of Christ and making a new creation in Christ wherein dwelleth righteousness. All mankind will one day be a new creation. Or do you see something evil about God concerning that too?

You might find this book helpful: concordant.org/expositions/problem-evil-judgments-god-contents/. You can read it online for free or purchase it on the web site.

1 Like
#95

I’ll stand with what I wrote, but I thank you for the response! :smiley:

There is no need to be confrontational, is there? I am not attacking you personally, and certainly you have the right to express yourself freely.
This Forum is a difficult place to nail down ‘the answer’ to any of the perennial questions because…well, they’re perennial :smiley: They have not been answered by the greatest minds and most devout Christians through history. Sometimes explanations just have to come to an end and at those times, I think it is important to back up and reaffirm the most important and clearest truths we have - which is what I did in my post.

Come on people, now, smile on your brother, everybody get together, let’s love one another right now! I just made that up! Wait…maybe I heard it somewhere :wink:

#96

https://sophmoet.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/free-will.jpg

You’re not seeing things clearly, Dave. If you embrace determinism - like I now do, then God did create evil. The opposite end of the spectrum is that evil does not exist and all is Good. Matter is an illusion and everything is all Good, according to Christian Science by Mary Baker Eddy.

Both sound equally plausible or inplausible, to those who are uninformed.

Both positions can be defended by Biblical exegesis. Most folks here - like yourself - fall somewhere in the middle (with a twist of universalism thrown in).

Just be sure to embrace the right spectrum end of things.

Actually, both the deterministic position conveyed here and Christian Science - embraces universalism. You just need to put on the right horse blinders and see the dangling carrot, in your field of vision. Just pick the right carrot to follow.

Then everything will be perfectly clear. I hope I’ve cleared things up for you. :exclamation: :laughing:

It has been determined that I now need to get a haircut and will be away for a while. :exclamation: :smiley:

#97

Randy, I just don’t carrot all for that determinism stuff :laughing:

#98

Who is being confrontational?

They may not have been answered by “the greatest minds” but who said we have to rely on the greatest minds for answers in spiritual matters. Often God uses the fools to make the truth known so He gets the glory. Who says they have not been answered. Just because they didn’t line up with your pre-conceived ideas? And I’m not being confrontational in stating that so don’t take it the wrong way.

I backed up my points with Scripture. What Scripture did you use to back up your statements? Or is that frowned upon to rest on what God has revealed concerning man’s bonadaged will?

It would also be good for some of you to read Luther’s “The Bondage of the Will” and his answers to Erasmus. It is not that expensive on Amazon.

1 Like
#99

Well, even frosty the snow man didn’t pick his own nose. :laughing:

or did he:

#100

Me thinks you are beginning to understand, brother. :laughing:

1 Like
#101

Dear friend,
Very very painfully I do understand in a very real way. So often I am reminded how painfully a fool I am. The only justifying of it all is
that God can use people like me to bring glory to Himself. Though I am happy He gets the glory, I still have to deal with my own
failures and foolishness. But I am a vessel formed on the Potters wheel by the Great Potter. He formed me for a specific purpose He had in mind.
Yes, I am thankfully a vessel of honor. I can even be thankful He formed me as a fool. But nonetheless, my flesh would desire greatness and for people to see me as incredibly wise. But just as a leopard cannot by thought, change its spots, so I, by some incredible act of will change myself from being a fool.
And yet even we who are fools are wiser than the wisest for we see the incredible wisdom of God in Christ, Who became to us wisdom . . . ah heck, here is the passage:

“For you are observing your calling, brethren, that there are not many wise according to the flesh; not many powerful, not many noble, but the stupid ones of the world God chooses, that He may be disgracing the wise, and the weak ones of the world God chooses, that He may be disgracing the strong, and the ignoble and the contemptible ones of the world God chooses, and the nobodies, that He may be discarding the somebodies, so that no flesh at all should be boasting in God’s sight. Yet you, of Him, are in Christ Jesus, Who became to us wisdom from God, besides righteousness and holiness and deliverance, that, according as it is written, He who is boasting, in the Lord let him be boasting.” (1Co 1:26-31)

Some of the wisest in the world as they pertain to the flesh, have not attained to what we have. That is such a wonderful thing that God puts such incredible treasures in weak vessels like ours and dispenses these treasures to others. And for this, how can we boast? We surely can’t!

Peace to you dear brother! Peace to you!

2 Likes
#102

Origen seems to have been responding to this when he wrote:

I haven’t stated that God occasionally stops people from carrying out their freewill decisions. He never does. What I stated was that God occasionally stops atrocities. He doesn’t do this by overriding the free will of the evil doers. Rather He occasionally intervenes in order to stop evil from being accomplished. For example, in one reported case, a wicked person shot at a Christian, and God stopped the bullets in mid-air so that it didn’t kill the brother. That is quite different from overriding the free will of the shooter so that he couldn’t choose to shoot.

I have never said nor implied that anything God actually does is not “ok.” And I have always affirmed that He never violates the free will of people.

WHAT does? I don’t understand what you are trying to prove.

#103

Paidion,
per your last post,
What if God sends a policeman to intervene in an atrocity. Is God still absolved from stopping someone’s supposed free-will attempt at doing something atrocious?
I don’t see any difference between God stopping a bullet or sending a policeman to stop a crime. In both cases, the person is not able to carry out their will.

As far as that goes, did not God overcome Paul’s will on the road to Damascus? He was on his way to harass Christians. Christ’s glory overwhelmed Paul with faith and love and grace. Christ never presented Paul with a Billy Graham “The Saviour is waiting to enter your heart, why won’t you let Him come in” kind of plea.

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#104

This is very interesting. I found this overview on Wiki entitled:

Neuroscience of free will

This is a compendium of contemporary brain research, where they are attempting to prove the “illusion of free will”. It’s very well put together.

In the meantime, Decades TV is featuring the Three Stooges this week. “It has been determined” that I will improve my education, by studying these historical pieces of art. :laughing:

#105

Not that I go by science to prove my faith but recently a scientist proved that our thoughts to do this or that enter into our subconscious prior to our even knowing we are going to choose to do this or that. Kind of freaky. In other words the thought comes prior to our making the thought.

2 Likes
#106

I don’t see any difference either so far as neither involved God overriding free will. But notice I said that if God consistently intervenes in the affairs of man, then that would override free will, as well as make uncertain the laws of nature. That is because events wouldn’t work according to natural causes. A gun may sometimes work properly, but if directed toward a person would never work. A man who was shoved over the edge of a cliff would not fall down. Thus the law of gravity would not be consistent. Try setting someone’s house on fire, and the fire would not start, or if it started it would not burn the house down. Thus people would be unable to set someone’s house on fire, or kill someone by shooting him or pushing him over a cliff.

No. Christ’s appearance to Paul enabled him to see that He had been persecuting Jesus and His followers, and to see that Jesus was the Messiah after all. It is possible that Paul may have chosen to pay no attention, passing off the vision as a mental aberration due to being overheated. But Paul believed it was reality.

If a man holds a gun to your head and tells you to give him your wallet, it is likely that you will do so when you consider that he might kill you. But he hasn’t overridden your free will. You could still choose to refuse him your wallet, and risk the consequences.