Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

[Eaglesway]

It really doesnt matter if the Son is eternal(having no beginning) or not, in terms of knowing Him. What it is, is an interesting theological discussion, and thats for sure, in terms of knowing about Him.

The same thing applies to whether God completely controls every thing or if man has a range of self determination in relationship to his life and times and service to(or not) God.

Most reasonable people accept a general theory in their own minds that fits in between the extremes. The extremes are usually proposed and promoted fervently by sectarian theologians.

The problem is, theologians get the idea that their perspectives on issues like this are the weight upon which men are “saved” or not, which is evidence of a true lack of understanding of the scriptures they purport to base their opinions on.

Salvation is a relationship with God. Jesus called us to know God and to love one another. Paul brought it down to knowing the Father and Son the Messiah through the Spirit and the word, and expressing that practically among our families and the community of believers and the community at large. Knowing about Him has value, but it doesnt save anyone, deliver anyone from sins grasp, or create a broken and a contrite heart in anyone.

Knowing God is where the depths are. Knowing about God is somewhere in the lesser, elementary principles of the oracles of God, a puddle by the shore little children splash around in because they are not yet mature enough to swim out into the deeper water, or go out sailing on the sea.

If Jesus has no beginning and is God very God by some mystical reality, existing as an eternal Trinity, or if Jesus was conceived in the mind of God as the “beginning” of creation, and is God in nature and eteranl power by inheritance and genesis, or if God by appointment like Joeseph to Pharoah, or whatever perspective one has on that… the understanding of it is not the basis upon which a relationship wth God is established, nor it is necessary to fully understand all the arcane variables of these theories to have a fruitful relationship with God and a deep understanding of the scriptures. The deeper I go the more I see the need to leave a little space for the mysteries.

Theologians like God in a box whose strings and ribbons are held in their hands. They get paid and build careers and gain status by the successful promotion of their views, not by the love of the truth- not to say that to be a theologian is to not love the truth- just to say that truth is a mystery, not a catechism.

God is not obliged to step into these boxes. We are not obliged to exalt them out of due proportion, because our values get jaded when we allow no space for these things to remain a bit misty around the edges, but instead hold them in our simple minds as absolutes to be battled over and applied to men as if they were the greatest questions, when they are not.

But as food for thought, and in the joy of plumbing the depth of mysteries and possibilities the nature of deity is an interesting and thought provoking discussion, as is the “free will/Sov” discussion, until folks who are sure the universe turns on their opinions start getting strident with one another and its no fun any more, because the walls have gone up and the fellowship has come down to absolutely categorizing things God has left as hazy views through a murky glass, so that we might at some point gain wisdom over knowledge and be humbled.

I think He did this on purpose, for His own protection, and the protection of the holy place in which He dwells, from the cacaphony of debate and the self assured ideas of men… so He could slip off out the side door and hang out with those who wonder at the glory of the stars and rejoice in the simple beauty of love and the innocence of childhood… out there in the deep water with those who have been called out of this dark world to keep the fires of love alive, to remain awed at the glory of God and seek to know Him in all His mystery, as the pearl of great price, and enter through the narrow gate, into the kingdom of God.

[anon12438761]

A most excellent post, thank you. I will keep it close at hand.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

I like to add an element to Eaglesway post. I find it’s also important, how we implement Christianity. And not just splitting hairs over doctrine. Although it is certainly good to do so - on occassion. Here’s something I’ve shared in another thread discussion with STT:

“Are Quakers Christian, not Christian—or both?”

I consider myself a Matthew 25 Christian because I believe that Christianity is about orthopraxis. In Matthew 25 Jesus says that nations will be judged on the basis on whether they care for the sick, help the poor, and visit the prisoner. “As you do for the least of these, you do for me.” According to Jesus, many who do not profess to be his followers will pass the divine “final exam” because they do the will of God and help those in need. Those who profess to be followers of Christ and don’t help the needy will flunk this exam because they have been hearers, not doers of the Word.

I also resonate with the epistle of James (a favorite text of early Quakers), because it makes a similar point: “True religion means caring for the widow and orphan (i.e. the poor and marginalized), and remaining unspotted by the world.”

Christians who live their faith in the way described by James and Jesus have inspired me in countless ways, and I feel deep gratitude to people like Dorothy Day, Martin Luther King, Mother Teresa, Jim Wallis, etc.

Those who make a mockery of Christianity by siding with the rich, or espousing war, seem to me hurtful. I wonder why people professing to be Christian seem to totally misunderstand Jesus’ core teachings: “Love your neighbor as yourself. Forgive your enemies. As you do to the least of these, you do for me. Treat others as you wish to be treated.” Recently, Ron Paul was loudly booed at a Republican debate in North Carolina when he said, “I believe we ought to apply the Golden Rule to our foreign policy. Let’s not treat other nations the way we would not want to be treated.” Certainly, the Golden Rule might be hard to apply to foreign policy, but why boo someone for suggesting that Jesus’ teachings might actually be worth trying? Respect for other nations might well produce far better results than our current arrogance and belligerence.

Let me also share an interesting article, I’ve found at Having Right Theology Does not Mean You Know God

If it’s harder for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven, it’s harder for an elephant to thread that needle than for a person who has right theology to not get arrogant. How many people do you know who have read one John Calvin book and thrown it down in a spiral while doing a touchdown dance as though they’d accomplished something themselves?

Five years after releasing my third book, Searching for God Knows What, the publisher came to me and asked if they could reprint the book. The book has sold strong for all those years, and they wanted to bump it into a second life. As a writer, I was excited about the idea. Before Million Miles, Searching was the book I was most proud of, so I agreed to put a new cover on it and write some extra material.

The two main components I added to the book are a new introduction in which I argue that right theology has no redemptive power at all, that redemptive power only comes through a relationship with Jesus. I explain why right theology has become a false idol, and when it’s used as a pacifier to make us feel right rather than redeemed, it breeds arrogance and is bait for an offensive, controlling personality. Many Christian leaders belittle other pastors and thinkers in the name of right theology. This is distracting, and by distracting I mean it’s a song and dance that distracts people from seeing Christ.

The second addition to the book is a personality theory I wrote and printed in the final chapter. I call it The Genesis Theory and it explains, I believe, how our personalities have developed based on the depiction of the fall of man in Genesis 2 and 3. I’m hoping to qualify this theory through trial at a Christian University. The seed of this theory is in this reprint.

Anyway, here is a bit of the new introduction. It’s only a bit of it, but it will give you an idea of what the book is about. Hope you like the additions. Thanks so much.

From the introduction of Searching for God Knows What:

….and through a dark night of the soul, I came to realize salvation happens through a mysterious, indefinable, relational interaction with Jesus in which we become one with him. I realized Christian conversion worked more like falling in love than understanding a series of concepts or ideas. This is not to say there are no true ideas, it is only to say there is something else, something beyond. There are true ideas involved in marriage and sex, but marriage and sex also involve something else, and that something else is mysterious.

If we have a controlling personality, in which we like to check things off of lists, this is going to be extremely hard for us to understand and embrace. God give us no control, really, over this “system” of relationship. Introducing somebody to Jesus is not about presenting ideas, then, as much as it is introducing a person to a Deity who lives and interacts. Evangelism, then, looks like setting somebody up on a blind date: God does the work, we just tell them about him and where they can find him.

You might be getting upset by this. You might think I am saying truth should be thrown out, that theology doesn’t matter. But this is not what I’m saying at all. What I’m intending to illustrate is our drive to define God with a mathematical theology has become a false God rather than an arrow that points to the real God. Theology can become an idol, but it is more useful as guardrails on a road to the true God. Theology is very important, but it is not God, and knowing facts about God is not the same as knowing God. Let me give you an extreme example of how very bad we have gotten about this in the west.

About the time (and I share this in the book, so forgive the repetition) I was thinking through these things, I was teaching a class in Canada, and my students were freshman college students, all of whom had grown up in the church. The class was called “The Gospel and Culture.” I started the class with an experiment, I told the class I was going to share the gospel of Jesus, but I was going to leave something out. I wanted them to figure out what I’d left out. I talked first about sin, about how we are fallen creatures. I told some stories and used some illustrations. I talked about repentance, and again told some stories, then I talked about God’s forgiveness, and I talked about heaven. I went on for some time. And when I finally stopped and asked the class to tell me what I’d left out, after twenty or more minutes of discussion, not one student realized I’d left out Jesus. Not one. And I believe I could repeat that same experiment in Christian classrooms across North America.

What I came to understand, then, is Christian conversion is relational. It is not theological or intellectual any more than marriage is theological or intellectual. In other words, a child could become a Christian if they had a mysterious encounter with Jesus, and a simple thinker could become a Christian if they had a mysterious encounter with Christ, and even a person who was a Muslim or a Buddhist could become a Christian if they had a mysterious relational encounter with Christ. This is the only answer at which I could arrive that matched the reality in which we live, the complexity of scripture, and the mysterious invitation offered to us by Jesus.

I hear the masses saying, “But no! A person cannot believe in multiple Gods and be a Christian.” Let me counter with some questions:

Can a person have bad theology and be a Christian?

Has your theology ever been corrected, and were you really a Christian before?

Is your theology all worked out now so you have no more reason to study, and if not, are you a Christian?

If you believe a person’s theology has to be right to be qualified for Christian conversion, then you are saying a person comes to know God, in part, because he has right ideas, and I respectfully disagree. Do I think right theology is important? Absolutely, but I do not believe it has any agency to convert anymore than directions to the doctor’s office has the power to heal.

I have a friend who countered, adamantly, that unless a person understood and agreed with the theological idea of total depravity, he could not be a Christian. I asked my friend when it was that he understood the idea himself, and he answered his sophomore year in seminary. I asked him, then, when he had become a Christian, and he told me when he was in the third grade. His reasoning was obviously insane, and I don’t think he is alone. I believe that God wants us to engage with and be transformed by His Word. So does that mean someone from another faith who encounters Jesus might have their ideology corrected? Maybe. What I’m saying, though, is that God doesn’t exclude someone from his saving grace because they don’t have the correct theological checklist. And for those of us who judge and condemn them, why would we stand in opposition when the God we love and serve is himself so adamant about being in relationship with them just as He is with us?

Would you do me a favor as you read this book? Would you be willing to grow and expand your understanding of God and how He works? If your understanding of Christianity is relatively conservative, it may surprise you that our theology is remarkably similar. It’s just that I am going to continue to pull power and beauty away from facts about God and give them to God himself. To the degree your right theology is your false God, this is going to disturb you. You are going to revolt, inside, because the thing you have been placing your security in (namely your ability to come up with and defend right ideas) is going to be threatened. But make no mistake, I am not attacking right theology, I am simply making theology a window rather than a wall.

On this journey, you may travel through the same dark night of the soul through which I have come. But on the other side, I assure you, is Christ, and you will love him for what He has done. You will stand bloodied from the battle, kneeling before Him, knowing He is all the hope you had, and hopefully, in a delightful moment of freedom, realize He is always the only hope you need.

If you’d like to read the entire book, you can find it at your local bookstore, Barnes and Noble, Borders or Amazon.

Another thing puzzles me about the article at A.E. Knoch’s errors in doctrine. I believe they present an excellent rendition of A.E. Knoch’s theology. And an excellent orthodox, theological and Biblical rebuttal.

But I wonder why the long and detailed work again Knoch - I’ve previously mentioned. But they don’t focus on other writers/theologians/presenters, not considered Orthodox. After all, the Calvinists sites Got Questions and CARM, goes after other figures. Interesting thought for speculation. Perhaps I need to more closely, view their article inventory of titles.

Hey, Eusebius. Did you do something on a forum or their website, to get Kevin to write that article

Like hit him with a virtual white glove

or

youtube.com/watch?v=m9Wh66FXZJQ

[Eusebius]

I think I actually said Paidion was not a believer and you agreed with me on that in that his beliefs are outside the scope of Christian teaching on Christ’s death.

Yeah, Paidion rejects Christ’s atonement and you reject Christ’s divinity. Both of those are cardinal Christian doctrines.

No I don’t reject Christ’s divinity.

[Eusebius]

Another thing puzzles me about the article at A.E. Knoch’s errors in doctrine. I believe they present an excellent rendition of A.E. Knoch’s theology. And an excellent orthodox, theological and Biblical rebuttal.

But I wonder why the long and detailed work against Knoch - I’ve previously mentioned. But they don’t focus on other writers/theologians/presenters, not considered Orthodox. After all, the Calvinists sites Got Questions and CARM, goes after other figures. Interesting thought for speculation. Perhaps I need to more closely, view their article inventory of titles.

Hey, Eusebius. Did you do something on a forum or their website, to get Kevin to write that article

Like hit him with a virtual white glove

I don’t know who Kevin is since he has to hide by not supplying his last name. He may be someone I’ve dealt with on another message board but don’t know. I have dealt with the ones I linked to earlier on my web site.
Knoch has dealt at length with some detractors in his day and which are recorded in our Unsearchable Riches magazine which is online at concordant.org.
Usually folks who are against Knoch’s ideas have not taken the time to truly understand his methodology.

For instance, in your linked article against Knoch the person wrote:
“He is bias in his translation.”

That is actually false. He gave each Greek word one basic meaning and used synonyms where necessary so it would be idiomatic. However the sublinear of the Greek Text he made did not use synonyms. He didn’t even translate AIWN or AIWNION (eon and eonian) but brought them directly over in their transliterated Anglicized form so no bias would be in that translation. He figured people can figure out what the noun and its adjectival form mean by how they are used. Definitive passages can give us their absolute meaning to prove non-eternalness for those two words. I’m not saying his translation is perfect. It is not possible to be perfect when going from one language set to another one such as going from Greek to English. It just isn’t possible to have perfect correspondence and anyone who says it is possible is lying or ignorant. It can always be improved upon. He said so.

And some that might understand just want to spread lies. They work for Satan such as Alexander the coppersmith in Paul’s day and:

1Ti 1:20 of whom are Hymeneus and Alexander, whom I give up to Satan, that they may be trained not to calumniate."

Satan hates the truth for the truth is not in him. So he does what he can to destroy ministers who try to get the truth out. He uses other Christians to do his bidding. The worst attacks are usually from people who call themselves “Christians,” not unbelievers.

[Paidion]

Yeah, Paidion rejects Christ’s atonement and you reject Christ’s divinity. Both of those are cardinal Christian doctrines.

No I don’t reject Christ’s divinity.

And I don’t reject Christ’s atonement.

[anon12438761]

And his divinity - if you mean that Jesus=God, is not cardinal Christian doctrine.

[Eaglesway]

I like what Pauil said, “I am determined to know nothing among you but Christ and Him crucified.”

If paul thought the exact construction of the godhead was cardinal doctrine He would have given a systematic and in depth presentation on it, like he did on the doctrine of eternal judgement in Romans 1 and two, or like He did on the resurrection of the dead in 1 Cor 15, or like he did on the purpose and destiny of Israel in Romans 9-11.

I love Romans 10

But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."

Anyone who believes on Him will never be put to shame, and no one gets twisted around in these issues until they hav been a believer long enough to be seduced by religion and lose track of the first foundation- Christ crucified and risen, and the second foundation, a heart cleansed and united to Him by grace through faith and the third foundation, “Every child born of Him loves every child born of Him.”

Somewhere along the way the head gets over the heart, and if I argue that love is the foundation that makes disagreement and exploration of differences possible, without fracturing bonds of fellowship, then I may be considered naive, even tho I am fairly educated on all the positions on all these issues and even love to talk about them.

But I like what Holy Zombie posted, because no one will hear, on that day, “You didn’t understand the godhead properly, Depart from me”.

But many will hear, “I never knew you”

and why?

Because their love had no practical expression, because their hearts were not moved. Immovable hearts chained to heads of rock LOL.

No one will hear, "You thought you had a will of your own, “Depart from me”, but maybe someone will hear, “You thought what you knew constituted knowing me, but your lack of affection for the brethren manifested that- you did not”.

The parable of the Samaritan and the wounded man is one place where i think Jesus makes it absolutely clear that love will save, because it demonstrates knowing Him, where often knowledge will not. Some folks start having conniption fits if someone suggests a person could walk on this earth and know God in the deepest part of His heart and manifest that relationship through how they respond to the needs of their fellowman, without the knowledge of the law, or the gospel, but to me Jesus was teaching what the true knowledge of God is- as Paul put it, “To visit widows in their affliction, to care for orphans,…etc”.

“I was thirsty and you gave me no drink”

To me, “I never knew you” means “You never came around when I needed you” or as in the Samaritan parable, “You saw my need and turned away and walked on by and left me there”

And to me this is the foundation laid in Romans 1 and 2.

In Ro 1 Paul lays out the foundation of the universal knowledge of God, as something ech individual and nations as a whole will be blessed by or judged by…

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19** since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.**

All things were created by Christ and He is the light “that lights every person who comes into the world”.

Paul re affirms this in Acts 17

“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

and it is affirmed)imo) again in Romans 2

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. …

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15** They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.**

But our gospel often doesnt declare that. It declares that on that day you will be justified by certain points of knowledge apart from works, yet as Holy P Zombie pointed out, and the scriptures affirm over and over again- especially by the Master Himself in Matthew 25…

“I will judge them by their deeds”

So the writer of Hebrews says, in relation to entering the promised rest, “Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised, And let us consider one another to stir one another up unto love and to good works…”

And Paul says,

For we are His workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Eph

So works are the manifestation of knowing God with a deeper knowledge than that manifested by the priests and theologians(scribes, lawyers, priests) and it will be evidenced in every conscience that stands before Him, the Light of Day.

“Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”

I would add to that James

Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a [a]stricter judgment. 2 For we all stumble in many ways…

Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18 **And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
**
Indeed, let him show his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.

[Eusebius]

“I will judge them by their deeds”

Hi Eaglesway,
If believers don’t adjudicate themselves in this life, God will. He is a loving Father. If He does not discipline His children then we are bastards. But God deals with us believers as ones who are in Christ Jesus. For us there is no condemnation. But, nonetheless, God deals graciously with all our offenses. That does not mean He doesn’t deal with them at all. It means He does deal with them but as a Father to a son and done so graciously.
I am reminded of the Corinthians who ate and drank unworthily at their dinner which was supposed to reflect the Lord’s last supper. They pigged out rather than thinking of the late comers to the meeting who had to travel so far to get there and were turned away hungry. So God judged them for that so they would not be condemned with the world.
But we should not do like some churches do and hold God’s just judgments over the heads of believers like some Damoclean sword.

The way I see it is if someone does not agree with me on the Scriptures . . . just get even with them! Knochites unite and destroy all opposition! We are an ever abiding cancer in the body of Christ!!! LOL! Just kidding.

Rom 14:4 “Who are you who are judging Another’s domestic? To his own Master he is standing or falling. Now he will be made to stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.” Eventually everyone will see the truth just like I do.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

“That’s my gift. I let that negativity roll off me like water off a duck’s back. If it’s not positive, I didn’t hear it.”-- George Foreman

Today I was thinking about inference. Things might not be explicitly stated (in the bible, for instance). But we can make an inference.

First, an online definition:

deduce or conclude (information) from evidence and reasoning rather than from explicit statements.

Take the donkey speaking, in the Old Testament. It may well be:

That donkeys back then, were as intelligent as humans - but lacked speaking ability
God temporary made the donkey as smart as humans…but also gave it, the temporary ability to speak
Someone was acting as a ventriloquist, but God opened the donkey’s mouth
God spoke through the donkey
Some other plausible explanation

But we are making inferences. Same with A.E. Knoch and bible translations. He does do a solo bible translation. But you can find a committee:

Of Baptists, composing a popular Baptist bible
Of Roman Catholics, composing a Roman Catholic bible

And the translators made inferences… on what should be the correct understanding. I just think it’s more objective…if you get translators of various denominational backgrounds… And they have to come to a consensus

Or I might infer this is a good omen, for what’s up and coming - in the elections. After all. **The billy goat curse is broken **

Or, let’s take a **hypothetical **situation. Suppose…before the World’s series starts…I saw a deceased healer - in a dream. And he’s wearing a blue baseball cap - no insignia. I might make an inference from that
Or another hypothetical situation. I hear a voice in a dream. Don’t watch the last 2 Cubs games. I infer the reason, is to show that God is in control

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTCZjkc64whE_19az9-_RKFbRjS_2FkuB6xC0DvFHBhtXOcwKCG

But back to the donkey.

If I read through the world Shamanic literature, I see stories of shamans talking to animals. Or taking animal form. So I infer - if the stories are true, mind you. We can potentially talk to animals.

After all. It has been said that indigenous medicine men and women, can talk to plants. And the plants communicate their medical properties. Along with what diseases then can heal. And how to prepare them as teas, etc.

And if I read the world shamanic and mystical literature…along with stories of saints and their deeds. Guess what?

I might infer that Adam and Eve possessed all these mystical abilities. But they lost them - after the fall. But saints and shamans of different religious traditions, sometimes rediscover some of them.

It’s all an inference - mind you. Just as I infer a writing style. It might sometimes be:

That of a philosophical, theological or literature positional paper
A fictional writing style
A direct response, copywriting style (the** best **are really “the masters of persuasion”. They get you to psychologically want, all them “big ticket” items)

Notice in the last style. I can be:

Using sentence fragments…like we use in actual speech
Inject images that grab your attention
Think out loud
Run thoughts together
Write like I speak, to grade school levels
Write like I am speaking, to friends in a bar.
Etc.

**All to grab your attention. **

Perhaps we can infer, that reality is more like a Dr. Strange movie or a** Dr. Who** odyssey. Rather then what it appears to be.

Food for thought!

http://theleakybathtub.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Sketch-10-redrawn-v1.jpg

And now a movie clip, to reinforce today’s message.

or

youtube.com/watch?v=cX_tE0M3ZCI

[Eusebius]

Today I was thinking about inference. Things might not be explicitly stated (in the bible, for instance). But we can make an inference.

First, an online definition:

deduce or conclude (information) from evidence and reasoning rather than from explicit statements.

Take the donkey speaking, in the Old Testament. It may well be:

That donkeys back then, were as intelligent as humans - but lacked speaking ability
God temporary made the donkey as smart as humans…but also gave it, the temporary ability to speak
Someone was acting as a ventriloquist, but God opened the donkey’s mouth
God spoke through the donkey
Some other plausible explanation

But we are making inferences. Same with A.E. Knoch and bible translations. He does do a solo bible translation. But you can find a committee:

Dear HFPZ, Thanks for the nice post. It is refreshing to read what you have researched on this matter. I wonder if some talking to animals and plants was drug induced in many cases? Is it possible Eve was tripping when she was talking to the serpent? I don’t know. But Yahweh also spoke to the serpent after the sin of the primal pair so I doubt He was tripping.

The methodology Knoch used was such that it avoids inferences and bias in his translation.
This might prove interesting in understanding Knoch’s methodology:
concordant.org/expositions/the-scriptures/scripture-translation-principles/

I have quite a number of books on my shelf concerning people of extraordinary abilities who lived in Tibet prior to China taking their country illegally. It is fascinating to read of their exploits. Believe it or not, one of them stated that Christ visited them many years ago and told them He is going to save all mankind. I was shocked when I read that. I think there is much much more to the human capabilities which we have not tapped into.

[Eaglesway]

But we should not do like some churches do and hold God’s just judgments over the heads of believers like some Damoclean sword.

The way I see it is if someone does not agree with me on the Scriptures . . . just get even with them! Knochites unite and destroy all opposition! We are an ever abiding cancer in the body of Christ!!! LOL! Just kidding.

Rom 14:4 “Who are you who are judging Another’s domestic? To his own Master he is standing or falling. Now he will be made to stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.” Eventually everyone will see the truth just like I do.

Inevitably

[anon47460357]

I have quite a number of books on my shelf concerning people of extraordinary abilities who lived in Tibet prior to China taking their country illegally. It is fascinating to read of their exploits. Believe it or not, one of them stated that Christ visited them many years ago and told them He is going to save all mankind.

That sounds interesting. What is the title and who is the author of that latter book?

[LLC]

Eusebius, sorry that it took me so long to get back to the discussion at hand. In answer to your question, “Do I believe that Christ died for our sins?”, I believe that it is BECAUSE of our sins that Christ died. When we sin, we no longer live in righteousness.The fruit of the Spirit dies and what we produce instead are thorns and thistles. In other words, our families, our communities and nations fall apart and many innocent people suffer. This includes our children and those of future generations as yet unborn, who are left without an inheritance. They are taught ways that are contrary to the Lord and thus continue on in sin. Jesus came to raise us up and teach us the proper ways according to God.

[LLC]

On another note, I believe that Jesus was a living example of God(the Father/ Logos/ Word/ Holy Spirit etc.) and man(the son) united as one, thus being a Son of God. From what I understand,we are not the Logos, but we all have the Logos in us, for “nothing was made that was made without Him.” God did not create us out of nothing, and if the only thing that existed in the beginning was God, then I’d say that He would have had to create us out of Himself. In this sense I suppose we could say that we are eternal as well. However, I can agree with Jeff in that I do believe Jesus was different in the sense that he was the Logos Himself in a man’s body.

[Eusebius]

I have quite a number of books on my shelf concerning people of extraordinary abilities who lived in Tibet prior to China taking their country illegally. It is fascinating to read of their exploits. Believe it or not, one of them stated that Christ visited them many years ago and told them He is going to save all mankind.

That sounds interesting. What is the title and who is the author of that latter book?

The 6 part set is entitled: “Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East” by Baird T. Spalding.
I can’t remember which number the statement came from as to Jesus saving all mankind.

[Eusebius]

Eusebius, sorry that it took me so long to get back to the discussion at hand. In answer to your question, “Do I believe that Christ died for our sins?”, I believe that it is BECAUSE of our sins that Christ died. When we sin, we no longer live in righteousness.

True, but when we sin, grace superexceeds.

Yet law came in by the way, that the offense should be increasing. Yet where sin increases, grace superexceeds, that, even as Sin reigns in death, thus Grace also should be reigning through righteousness, for life eonian, through Jesus Christ, our Lord." (Rom 5:20-21)

What, then, shall we declare? That we may be persisting in sin that grace should be increasing? May it not be coming to that! We, who died to sin, how shall we still be living in it? (Rom 6:1-2)

The thing is this: Though we are saved, we will and do sin and will continue to sin until we put on immortality and incorruption. But we should strive to walk in newness of life as if alive from among the dead.

The fruit of the Spirit dies and what we produce instead are thorns and thistles. In other words, our families, our communities and nations fall apart and many innocent people suffer. This includes our children and those of future generations as yet unborn, who are left without an inheritance. They are taught ways that are contrary to the Lord and thus continue on in sin. Jesus came to raise us up and teach us the proper ways according to God.

Most of Paul’s epistles deal with correction of the early believers. In spite of their waywardness, Paul nonetheless painted a wonderful picture for all of them to look forward to. Though we sin, there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. That is a wonderful truth to rest on. Yes, when I sin I feel really badly about it. But I tell God I’m sorry and tell Him I think You would rather I go through life thanking You that Christ died for all my sins rather than beating myself over the head every day.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

@Eusebius

@Geoffrey

@Eusebius

I have quite a number of books on my shelf concerning people of extraordinary abilities who lived in Tibet prior to China taking their country illegally. It is fascinating to read of their exploits. Believe it or not, one of them stated that Christ visited them many years ago and told them He is going to save all mankind.

That sounds interesting. What is the title and who is the author of that latter book?
The 6 part set is entitled: “Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East” by Baird T. Spalding.
I can’t remember which number the statement came from as to Jesus saving all mankind.

“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one’s courage.”-- Anais Nin

Just a footnote here. The six volume set entitled Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East (6 Volume Set), is available on Amazon.

It’s interesting that it’s collectively rated 4.6 out of 5 stars, by about 230 total reviewers. You can probably get it free (in the US), via the inter-library loan program. Just check with your adult reference librarian. Or the equavalent, in other countries.

It’s interesting to read though some, of the user reviews.

The author was also well educated and very bright. I’ll share this here from Amazon:

Baird T. Spalding, whose name became legend in metaphysical circles during the first half of the 20th century, played an important part in introducing to the Western world knowledge of the Masters, who are assisting and guiding the destiny of mankind. Born in England, at age four he went to India. At age seventeen he finished the University and went to California where he stayed two years. He then traveled to Heidelberg, Germany and studied for eight years and then returned to California for post-graduate work in Archaeology at Berkeley and Stanford.
`After years of working with publisher Douglas DeVorss to write and promote the Life & Teaching series, Spalding died in 1953 in Arizona.

Here’s more about the author on Wiki, at Baird T. Spalding

I saw the Dr. Strange movie yesterday. It was excellent. And very well rated on IMDB. And check out the new season of AMC’s Walking Dead. It’s fairly close, to the comic book series. But only after starting today, with health and prosperity TV evangelist - Joel Osteen

And some wise advice on voting, from renown marketer Seth Godin at How they talk you out of voting.

And for the technical folks out there. I use the Owly instead of the Google URL shortener - for Seth Godin. It’s because I shared him on Twitter and already shortened the URL. No sense in duplicating work.

Now for an interesting and related film clip.

or

youtube.com/watch?v=LBDSdvgTfBc

[LLC]

Eusebius, when we walk according to God, we are no longer sinning. If we are sinning, Christ has not fully risen in us and we are still dead in our trespasses. In other words righteousness is being sinless in the eyes of God. However, this is only part of it. We must also do the works as well. Yes, we as individuals maybe righteous and no longer be sinning, but we still live in sinful world. When the heads of our communities and nations are thieves, liars an murderers, there is no justice or mercy, forgiveness, honesty etc. Believers must do the works in order to compensate for this. Teaching our children is also essential. In doing these things, we are watering the seeds of God that have been planted in all of us.

[Paidion]

Though we are saved, we will and do sin and will continue to sin until we put on immortality and incorruption.

If we “will and do sin and will continue to sin” then we are not saved from sin.

Rather, if we have entrusted ourselves and submitted ourselves to Christ, we are being saved from sin through his sacrifice for us. Salvation is a life-long process.

Here is an interesting answer to the question, “Are you saved?” from Metropolitan Kallistos, an Orthodox priest.

youtube.com/watch?v=IjHGtCHyBrU