The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Evangelical Universalism
#1082

I proclaimed the same thing until I was 25 years old. But I didn’t really mean that we were saved from our sins themselves. I believed the clause actually meant that on the day we trusted in Jesus as Savior and Lord, we were saved from the result of our sins—namely eternity in the lake of fire.

It wasn’t clear to me from you post what you mean when you say we were saved from our sins on the day we trusted Christ. Perhaps you could spell that out for me.

I see being saved from sins as tantamount to being saved from sinning. If we haven’t stopped sinning, we haven’t been saved from sin. Thus I believe salvation is a process that will be completed in the day that Jesus returns, when we will be raised to life.

#1083

Hi Paidion… along a similar vein do you have any thoughts on my response to you over HERE.

#1084

The evangel which gives me much peace in believing is this:
[Christ] gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, (Gal.1:4 NKJV)

The “might” is not the “might” of doubt (maybe it will happen or maybe it won’t) but is in the subjunctive.

An example of the subjunctive is: I have a pen in my hand. I will loose my grip on the pen that it might fall to the floor. The falling of the pen is dependent upon the loosing of my grip on it. It will surely fall should I do so. What follows is dependent upon what occurred before. Likewise, our deliverance out of this present evil age is dependent upon Christ giving of Himself for our sins. Since He has done so, we surely will be delivered. Our deliverance is not dependent upon what we do but upon what our Faithful Saviour has done.

Also, what brings me much peace is this: “1Th_5:10 [Christ] died for our sakes, that, whether we may be watching or drowsing, we should be living at the same time together with Him.” The “should be” likewise is subjunctive. The “should be” is not the “should be” of doubt but rather a sure thing.
Because He died for our sakes we will be living at the same time together with Him in the future. Again, this is not dependent upon what we will do or have done but is solely based upon our Faithful Saviour dying for our sakes. This evangel of good news brings much peace to me in my life. I hope it brings much peace to you as well.

#1086

I believe this too.

I thought you believed, though, that after our physical resurrection we will still have further corrections needed.

#1087

“Everyone* who is begotten of God, is not doing * sin, for His [God’s] seed is remaining in him, and he [relatively speaking] can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God” (1 John 3:9; cp 1 John 1:8).

I would first say to do an exhaustive search on “sin” in 1 John to see what John says about it. Here are the verses:

1Jn_1:7 Yet if we should be walking in the light as He is in the light, we are having fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, is cleansing us from every sin."
1Jn_1:8 If we should be saying that we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

1Jn_3:4 Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness."
1Jn_3:5 And you are aware that He was manifested that He should be taking away our sins, and in Him is no sin."

1Jn_3:8 Yet he who is doing sin is of the Adversary, for from the beginning is the Adversary sinning. For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary."
1Jn_3:9 Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God."

1Jn_5:16 If anyone should be perceiving his brother sinning a sin not to death, he shall be requesting, and He will be giving him life for those sinning not to death. There is a sin to death: I am not saying that he should be asking concerning that."
1Jn_5:17 All injustice is sin, and there is a sin not to death."

From the above verses, such as 2:1 and 5:16, we see it is possible for a Circumcision brother to sin. So I would say that per 1 John 3:9 the “doing” in “doing sin” is one who of the Circumcision believers is a habitual sinner, i.e., one who makes a livelihood out of sinning as it were.

When we put on immortality and incorruption in that future day, we no longer will sin at all for we are no longer dying or corrupted.*

#1088

In answer to your question, I would say that unbelievers have to do the same thing we all must do. God did not create us to be bumbling fools. We were made to be rulers of our lives and rulers of the earth. Jesus SHOWED us the way and has commanded us to rise up out of the grave (put away our sins) and walk according to God, for He said “Take up your mat and WALK.”, and “Go and sin no more.”

#1089

Being saved from sin is much more than being saved from sinning, according to what i see in the scriptures. I agree that salvation will be complete on the day of resurrection, however, according to the scriptures, we are also saved when we believe- from a large number of the effects of sin. To name a few…

We are saved from the oppression of the flesh. What we were powerless to overcome before, we are now empowered to overcome.

We are saved from the fear of death. Sin brings guilt and guilt brings fear, “But if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.” THAT IS SALVATION FROM SIN,for sure

We are saved from many of the effects of sin. We have passed from death unto life, and sin no longer “reigns” in our mortal body, and life is in us, as Christ is in us which…

Is the biggest thing. Christ in you the hope of glory.

We are saved, Paul says to Titus…"But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. 6This is the Spirit He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

He saved us, and Jesus is our Savior.

The narrow view that we are not saved until we are no longer sinning, produces much defeat for struggling believers. The status quo has been to condemn sinners, so when a believer hears that he/she is not saved, a wide variety of religious deceptions are activated. We are called to rescue the weak- not bury them or obfuscate the soucre of their deliverance, which is the forgiveness they have received ALREADY… The salvation that IS IN THEM through the grace of God, and the grace, that is received by faith, because of the encouragement that…

“He that has begun a good work in you will complete it unto the day of Jesus Christ” Phil 1:6

And there is is in clear form. He has begun a good work and He will complete it. That is what it means to be saved, and that confidence is the source of strength for struggling believers being overmatched by the enemy due to confused religious teaching. It is the beginning place.

God loves me where I am and has received me into His family, therefore I am “saved”(healed, delivered, restored). I am a new creature in Christ. Oold things are passing away and all things have become new. I have been saved. I am being saved. I will be saved on the day of Jesus Christ- but it all began the moment I believed on Him.

"For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have?’

We were saved, but we do not yet have the fulness of that salvation, but it is Here, it is Growing, and it is Coming down out of heaven in fulness with Jesus Christ.

There is great salvation from sin, for those who can be delivered from the condemnation of the law and enter into the forgiveness(initial and ongoing) of Christ.

#1090

Bow their knee and confess with their mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Same as we did :slight_smile:

#1091

Very good!
I think they will bow their knee and joyfully acclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord because, at that moment, they will have experienced all the wonderful benefits from what Christ did for all. They will experience immortality and incorruption for the first time. They will experience true, unconditional love for the first time. What do you think?

#1092

My take on salvation is this:

The moment God gives us faith to be believing, we believe the evangel that Christ died for our sins, was entombed and roused the third day. At that very moment we are sealed (a seal that can’t be broken) by the holy spirit of promise FOR the day of deliverance.

We are saved for eonian life. That promise cannot be revoked.

We are saved from being at enmity to God (reconcilied).

Yes, we still sin, but we know Christ died for our sins. We know one day we will be sinless. Until then, God sees us as being in Christ.

#1094

I wonder how many here believe that once all mankind are saved that they still need to do things to keep their salvation? And if so, what?

#1095

St. Paul?

Romans 2: There is no doubt at all that he will ‘render to every man according to his works’, and that means eternal life to those who, in patiently doing good, aim at the unseen (but real) glory and honour of the eternal world

#1096

Are you inferring Paul is teaching salvation by works?

#1097

What does St. Paul say, right there in that verse?

#1098

I agree that as each one bows their knee they will experience all of those things.

“As in Adam all died so also “in Christ” shall all be made alive, but each in His own order.”

The bowing of the knee (imo) is repentance and faith towards God. This will happen for every being in creation, at one point or another(at which point many disagree). IMO the lake of fire symbolizes"in the presence of the Lamb and His holy angels"(Rev 14:10) and the Hebrews 12 "general assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven- so I don’t believe anyone has to “do” anything(not works of righteousness we have done, eph 2) so much as they have to experience something- repentence, which is “truth in the inner man” which will come as the adversaries stand before the one whose eyes are as flames(all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do Heb 12).

So I dont believe all are saved. I believe all will be saved, and that every one will be saved when they have received a broken and a contrite heart before the overwhelming glory of His presence.

2 Cor 4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

All who are lost (apollumi)will be found, and every veil purged away by the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

#1099

If I may inject something here…

IMO Romans one and two contain the foundations of Paul’s teaching on eternal judgment.(Hebrews 6:1-3 foundation doctrines)

Works themselves will be judged, we know from 1 Cor 3:13-17…

12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; **but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
**

So salvation is not by works, but faith without works is dead(faith is such that it will always produce works of some kind- even if it is only forgiveness where their was hatred, remorse here there was indifference or arrogance.). The first thing is repentance and faith towards God(a broken and a contrite heart), which is a gift of grace…

Eph 2 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

In Romans 2 Paul states, as he does in several places(2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:12-17) as Jesus also does(He will judge them according to their deeds, Mt 6:27) that works will be weighed(I am he that tries the reigns and the hearts) in for everyone(for we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give account for the deeds done in the body). But repentance and faith towards God washes out evil works. John says, “if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” So I extrapolate that that is what happens when one bows the knee before the revelation of Christ crucified, risen as Lord and Savior. This further evidenced in John the Baptist “And they were baptized by him in the Jordan river, confessing their sins”. When one confesses their sin they are washed, because they have separated themselves from the sin in their hearts, “Agreeing with the law of God in [their] mind, that it is good”- and this referring to the Great Law, the law of love.

Salvation is by grace, but works will be judged “their conscience either excusing them or accusing them on the Day when God judges the secrets of their hearts by Jesus Christ”

For those who never had the law or the gospel, the universal law of God explained in Romans 1 will apply. Made evident by the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ(2 Cor 4)

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse…

In His presence all the secrets of all the hearts will be revealed and “The Lord knows those who are His”-

Those who have a broken and a contrite heart(honest before Him and within themselves about their faults before Jesus who is the fire) will rejoice in forgiveness. Others may endure some form of kolassis( I believe that is simply being penetrated by the light that brings every hidden thing to the surface.)

So salvation is by faith through grace. This grace is often given in the midst of judgment(fire/light that opens the heart) and works apply only as evidence of the condition of the heart, as James said, “faith without works is dead”

And thats the short answer LOLOLOLOL.

#1100

Thanks EW. :smiley:
I was hoping to get Eusebius’ answer to my question.

#1101

I do not believe in light switches:

“Richard is saved, Linda is not saved, Anne is saved, Laura is not saved, Charles is not saved…”

“Hey! Didn’t you hear? Charles accepted Jesus into his heart last night!”

“Oh, OK! So Charles is saved…”

Insofar as any man has been saved from his sins, he does not sin. Insofar as any man has not been saved from his sins, he does sin.

For example, if Mr. Charles (who accepted Jesus into his heart last night) is still getting drunk, he has not been saved from his drunkenness. If, on the other hand, he has put away the bottle, then he has been saved from his drunkenness.

Saved does NOT in this context mean “going to Heaven when you die”. I believe that every single person since Christ’s death on the cross goes to Heaven when he dies, no exceptions.

Saved DOES mean “not sinning anymore”. The less a man sins, the more saved he is. The more a man sins, the less saved he is.

#1102

Even as not an “ultra” universalist… John’s statement must still be taken in context with his other words in his epistles and the scriptures as a whole. John describes sin as “If any man says He loves God and hates his brother he is in darknes still” and "the new command, which is the ancient one, “Love one another’”. I believe, in John’s paradigm, as presented across all His writing, he one who is loving is not “sinning”, even tho we all stumble in many ways(James) "Love covers a multude of sins(also James).

How?

If the love of God is in us, we have forgiveness wherever we fall short. If not “all our righteousness is as filthy rags”.

“If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”(1 John 2)

“7Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.….” (1 John 4)

#1103

Geoffrey said:

I might tend to agree with this… :smiley:

Then Geoffrey said:

.

My contention is that Christ took care of the sin problem between man and God. So man could not do it but Christ stood in the gap. So we may well keep on sinning (in various degrees) and yet Christ will have taken care of those very sins. The idea of us possibly not sinning any more is interesting. :open_mouth: