I doubt whether he would have learned a thing! He wouldn’t have to learn anything since instant sinlessness would be thrust upon him apart from anything he chose.
I would say that this is the moment of enlightenment. Those of us who have studied mathematics will recognize the “eureka” moment. Sometimes we struggle to grasp a certain concept or how to do a particular type of problem. Before the moment of enlightenment all is opaque and senseless. Then suddenly, out of the blue, “Eureka!” It all makes sense, and we wonder how we didn’t see it all along because it’s all so simple and obvious and couldn’t possibly be any other way.
I do not believe that we sinners will have righteousness thrust upon us like the blow of a knife, whether we will or no. I instead believe that the omnipotent Christ, revealed in all His naked glory, will correct us instantly. That instant will contain our free choice to be conformed to Christ. That instant will contain our repentance, our turning away from sin. It will contain our correction. It will contain our education, our enlightenment. It will contain our liberation from sin. It will contain our glorification. It will contain our coming to perfection.
From all I’ve read here on this message board, Paidion, I think you and I are on the same page when it comes to soteriology. (We studied at the feet of the same master, after all: George MacDonald.) Our difference is only a detail of how long does our complete salvation from sin take after the death of the body? You think it will take longer than an instant. I think it will take only an instant.
Geoffrey said:
Your Idea brings up many valid points. I tend to think that we will be at a state of understanding of our redemption the moment we pass from this life to the next. No matter what we have done (Hitler?) we will be in the presence of the almighty Creator.
The problem that many have is in the thinking that a life time of incorrigible sin can not be forgiven instantaneously… (I’m on your side on this) 
I believe this (that it can be forgiven instantaneously) is the gospel message. Fulfilled, said… forgiven, done. Because Christ did it for us.
Somehow we need to get beyond the eye for an eye mindset. What say you? 
Yes it’s got a slight smack of self-righteousness to it in terms of ‘I’ve toiled all my life and along come this joker and gets as good finally deciding 5min to midnight’ …it’s pretty much the attitude reflected in… Mt 20:1-15; Acts 10:15; Jon 4:1-4; 1Sam 30:22-24.
Chad, I have no problem with instantaneous forgiveness. None at all.
That which I doubt is instantaneous transformation of character. In this life, rehabilitation and reformation takes time. Why should it be any different in the next? Because of our tendency to persevere in our wrongdoing a period of correction (not punishment) is necessary.
I would agree with this sentiment… however, where does one find ‘character transformation’ described in terms of that which many on this forum understand in terms of a postmortem burning or fire??? Surely God’s chastising IN THIS LIFE (as one might know it) could be nowhere described in such terms… so why IF such is a possibility or requirement postmortem would such be any different? Most OT texts ascribing God’s fiery judgements seem relative to THIS LIFE and seem indicative of the SEVERITY of judgement as opposed to a particular “form” of judgement, i.e., in this case “burning”.
I know you favour the likes of Mk 9:49 but there really is no evidence from the text itself that this is indicative of 1) postmortem, or 2) being universal in application; there just isn’t. Quite the opposite from the text I should think… the whole section from vs. 30 to 50 is CLEARLY Jesus instructing his disciples and THEIR character-ship toward each other; the latter part of vs. 50 caps this off in a not too dissimilar manner as Paul’s instruction in Col 4:6.
IF one takes Rom 6:7 as particularly pertinent to believers there certainly can be no postmortem impost for sin because one has ALREADY been “freed” or “cleared”… so why the added yoke of performance measurement i.e., evidenced somehow in terms of ‘character assessment’ to a postmortem scenario that isn’t in any real sense validated in Scripture? Again quite the opposite I should imagine, as in, who in all their prideful arrogance or blind ignorance would not respond in worshipful contrition postmortem, in kind, before the very presence of God as is reflected in these Scriptures below:
Hi Paidion.
I will begin by saying that I have a bunch of respect for your knowledge (especially in the Greek) and your obvious commitment to Christ.
Now on to forum stuff.
You and I have locked horns over this for a while now. And the difficulty I see with your above statement is that it SEEMS to go against what you have said in earlier posts. And I will allow some leeway of my inability to understand 
But you have been quite vocal on your belief that there can be no forgiveness without repentance, thus a person has to make a conscious decision to change, before God’s forgiveness can be applied… In other words ‘Atonement’ can not be attained without repentance.
My motto question has always been, 'IS CHRIST’S ATONEMENT ACTUAL OR CONDITIONAL.
My position is that from a covenantal standpoint, Israel, and thus humanity, through Christ’s doing, have been forgiven, in spite of our selves.
There is a preponderance of scripture that deals with Christ’s call for the Jews of his day. I think Christ came to redeem Israel, plain and simple, but through that process, the gentiles (nations… ALL OF THEM 
ALL OF US ) were included.
Yes, we may, or should, or maybe won’t heed God’s Spirit in the call to come to him, but we would live better happier lives with Him than without him. The Idea of time to repent would in my estimation be qualified by the circumstance one finds him or her self in. In this life I would say even those who strive for perfection fall short. But I believe that they are rewarded with the attempt. I believe in blessings and miracles.
For me that is the 2016 gospel message.
After we die, It is time to stand before the King and there is a lowly man born in a stable that took away the sin of the world.
Thanks Paidion.
Peace
We find it throughout the teachings of Christ and his apostles. That’s what salvation is all about. To be saved from our sins is to have our character transformed. If this doesn’t happen, we will go on doing wrong.
I don’t think God does much chastising in this life except to let the consequences of our wrongdoing have their hurtful effect on us. (To quote a common proverb, “Hold your hand in the fire and you will get burned.”) The character transformation takes place in the next life for the unbeliever. The fire of God’s love does the purification (with the appropriate response from those receiving the correction). There will be discomfort in resistance. Those who do resist will suffer from the same fire in which those who have submitted during this life, will rejoice. Some may hold out a long time, but there’s an infinite time ahead. Eventually all who coöperate with God will be changed into His likeness.
That is what the texts say; that is how Moses and some of the prophets understood God. We can be thankful that Jesus revealed God as He really is, “Kind to ungrateful people and evil people.” He said that if we love our enemies and do good toward them, we will prove ourselves to truly be children of God.
So what happens to those who have not been cleared? Will God bring eternal retribution to them? Or did Christ’s sacrifice cover saint and sinner alike? If the latter, tell me what would have happened to us all if Christ had not died on our behalf?
However the New Testament writers indicate that Christ died so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. THIS is the real reason for Christ’s death on our behalf, not merely to “cover us with a cloak of righteousness so that when God looks at us He doesn’t see our continuing sin but Christ’s righteousness.” Virtually all of the reasons given for Christ’s death in the New Testament is that we may be changed in our values and behaviours:
*I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.
Heb 9:26 …he has appeared once for all at the end of the age for the abolition of sin by the sacrifice of himself.*
Each one of these results in a character change. The one from Titus results in “performance”—no less—purification and performance. To be zealous for good deeds there needs to be a change in character. If no change is need, then Christ died to no purpose. The whole passage is Titus is worth examining again. God’s enabling grace has come to us through Christ’s sacrifice, and is appropriated by faith TRAINING US:
For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)
So this is the way the character of God’s people is changed in this life—through the process of salvation, a life-long process, a process that will some day be complete:
Philippians 1:6 I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
So what about the majority of people who have nothing to do with Christ? God wants righteous people, but many of them are hateful, murderers, etc. They must be changed. It’s not going to happen here without Christ, and so it will happen post-mortem. God wants righteous people. God will continue to work with them until ALL are reconciled to Him and become righteous.
A goodly number may BEGIN to respond, but their “worship” will be pretty shallow until their characters are changed in order to have a propensity toward meaningful worship.
Yep I get the character transformation but what you’ve misread was my reference to the language used in reaching this “in terms of a postmortem burning or fire???”— it’s THAT aspect I’m NOT finding “throughout the teachings of Christ and his apostles.”
Is that because in your estimation you haven’t seen/experienced much of it? What do you make of the numerous THIS LIFE examples of OC Israel? Or, what do you make of the following?
There is just no way possible to read postmortem into any of this above; this would seem to me, at least, to have clear THIS LIFE applicability alone.
So this is a major tenet of your position, YET you seem unable to back this up with relevant texts that actually state this. You ARE stating it, as it is your position, BUT no texts of Scripture say what you’re saying… this is WHY I’m questioning its validity.
And this then seems to cut right across in contradiction to your thoughts above as per… “I don’t think God does much chastising in this life…” ???
So we seem in agreement here and yet as such this applied to the here-and-now, NOT postmortem — my very point.
Christ’s sacrifice indeed covered (cleared) ALL in that all “saints” were in fact “sinners” and “enemies” WHEN Christ’s intervention reconciled ALL, as per Paul…
Again, Paul is very clear as he likewise writes here…
I’m not sure this can be any clearer.
I think this is a massive overstatement… SOME “people who have nothing to do with Christ” MAY be “hateful, murderers, etc” BUT the bulk of humanity is simply ignorant of God’s grace, and I have to say a large portion of this IMO is due to the poor representation “the Church” has made with regards to the message of God.
I think “real reason” misses much that I’ve (or more properly Paul) laid out above. All those texts you’ve given are the consequential benefits for believers in service of Him and others… so they are crucial as you rightly point out; yet you miss the point IF it is not understood that these APPLY to BELIEVERS. Hence to whom much has been given much is required, etc.
Old covenant Israel was covered annually by the atonement, and yet within that covered community were chosen ones, called and appointed to minister ON BEHALF OF the rest. These were they who came under stricter scrutiny. The new covenant is no different other than it is perfect and more comprehensive in scope.
Paidion , you have made some very good points.
The way I see it, Jesus is not a “third person”, nor is He a substitute for our own righteousness. We can refer to Jesus as the Logos or the Word of God for simplicity, so that we can all understand who or what God is. But I believe that the Logos /Word IS God, and He is in us all. We can never be rid of Him, for He has woven Himself into the fabric of our very being. It would be like cutting the heart out of one’s own body and expecting to live. It can’t be done. We can try to hide or ignore Him, but only for a time, for God does not die, nor can He be destroyed. God is already present in us, and obeying His voice is righteousness. If we turn from Him, we will suffer. Who knows what happens to us after we leave this earth? There could many “worlds” that we may enter into, as is true on earth. One thing we do know for sure is that God’s word will still be there. I suppose that the only thing to do then is to prepare ourselves beforehand for whatever comes next.
Davo, much was said by both Christ and the apostles about people who practise evil being sentenced to post-mortem fire (in some instances “lasting fire”). We know that fire is a purifying agent. Salt also is a purifying agent. Our Lord’s words “EVERYONE will be salted with fire” suggest that everyone will be purified with fire. What is that fire? It is God Himself! "For our God is a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29). God is love! That love will be experienced by his own in the next life basically as love, but perhaps as a bit of purifying fire as well. For those who have opposed Him in life, it will be experienced as painful. But the fire of God’s love will be purifying in any case. It will utterly consume all the evil it finds in all people. This does not happen in the present life, and so it must happen in the next.
All gobbledygook … No where in the scriptures is there a hint of post mortem punishment or as you say… Correction. It isn’t there. The Hebrews context is to the Israelites and what they were about to go through. They were headed for destruction. Thus the verbiage of fire. The Jews that were rebellious, were going to literally go through fire. An awful fire. Jesus came to save as many of them as he could.
Show me if I am wrong.
You will not have to. Cause it will not happen Especially to you qaz… You have the heart of a person who wants to know the Lord. Even if we may disagree about the particulars, you are searching. That is cool.
Peace
Chad
Thanks for getting back to me Paidion…
This is where I’m drawing a blank with your statements BECAUSE you’re not providing textual evidence that “much was said by both Christ and the apostles about people who practice evil being sentenced to post-mortem fire” — WHERE is this “much”? …because I’m not seeing you giving copious references etc.
Even when I search… “consuming fire” in relation to “God” I come up with these four texts (Ex 24:17; Deut 4:24; 9:3; Heb 12:29) and NONE of them have a skerrick of evidence leaning towards anything remotely post-mortem… you have to be bringing and subsequently reading that presupposition into the text, IMO. In fact reading those texts, it seems pretty obvious (at least to me) that such consumption is conclusively pertinent to THIS LIFE, period.
Yep I agree totally. I’m NOT sure however that contextually you can conclusively claim that “everyone” is inclusive of 1) all humanity, or 2) that this somehow applies post-mortem… because the TEXT simply doesn’t allow for this; and there are other options.
I do get your philosophical rationale BUT I’m just NOT getting that from Scripture, and I tend to think that IF such was there, in all honesty you’d simply give said passages… that you don’t is a red flag for me… but that’s me. We may just have to agree to disagree on this matter and I’m all good with that Paidion.
I will quote some them, though I feel sure that you will say they they either apply to this life or to 70 A.D. You think my understanding that the fire comes post-mortem is “philosophical” or speculation. I think any other understanding of these passages, are such.
These passages are from the ESV translation:
*Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”
Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
Matthew 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Matthew 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.
Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mark 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Mark 9: 47-49 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. For everyone will be salted with fire.
Luke 3:17 His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”*
First, I don’t believe there will be post-mortem existence until the resurrection takes place at Christ’s return.
I don’t think the correction at that time will consist of physical pain. I don’t think that would be corrective. In this life, fathers who beat their sons usually don’t find this action corrective, but find that it results in hatred and rebellion on the part of their sons.
God’s essence is LOVE, but that doesn’t mean He’ll “take 'em all in” free gratis. He won’t simply accept them as they are because of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. His sacrifice was for the purpose of delivering them from wrongdoing, and changing their characters in THIS life. But if they refuse Christ, then He must change them in the next life. He wants to rehabilitate them, so that they will love Him and serve Him. It is because He is LOVE that He wants to see every evil-natured, hating person converted to a loving person. This correction may be pretty uncomfortable, but God will do no more than is absolutely necessary to help them. Also, I believe that this correction is not all that He will do. I think that at the time the dead are raised to life again when Jesus returns, and the resurrection of the dead takes place, He will use the fully-mature children of God (who will be manifest in that day) to minister to those who need regeneration. God will do nothing toward anyone except that which has its origin in His pure LOVE.
Yep Paidion I get the “fire” bit just fine… again it is simply the post-mortem-ism getting read back into it plainly isn’t there, i.e., that has to be assumed to see it. Jesus’ injunctions are about entering the life of the coming new age was very much in line with Jewish thinking that spoke of this world and Messiah’s reign over it; he was not speaking of other or next-worldliness as in post-mortem heaven or assumed obstacles in getting there. Anyway, we may be flogging a dead horse.
I can’t pm him either. Claims he isn’t blocking me. Glitch? I mentioned this to Jason and him and it never did get resolved.
I agree.
I have no idea. I’m not blocking anyone. And I am able to PM others.
People used to PM me, and so I didn’t know there was a problem until I read in your posts that you couldn’t. However, I have now discovered the problem. My board preferences would not allow private messages. I didn’t set it that way, and so I don’t understand how it got changed. Anyway, I changed it to “allow” and then tried PMing myself. It worked.