The Evangelical Universalist Forum

From another Forum

Thank you Cindy.

I’ve thought about what you said here.

May I ask what you think of the following?

nd.edu/~afreddos/courses/43150/carroll3.htm

I find it hard to escape the logic of that.

Where is it flawed?

Is it wrong to say that “events that occur in the natural world are only occasions in which God acts”?

Is it true to say that when paper is burning, God is the real agent of the burning (and the fire is just an instrument)?

In the analogy you used, the boy’s neglect would not cause the moped to rust without the presence of moisture and oxygen in the atmosphere, but is the moisture and oxygen or God’s will the real agent of the rusting?

Is it true that “events that occur in the natural world are only occasions in which God acts”?

Hi, Michael

I’ll think on this and get back with you – probably on Monday.

Blessings, Cindy

Hi, Michael

I wouldn’t say that nature is autonomous any more than a helium balloon that’s slowly losing its lift is autonomous. It floats here and there as the wind takes it, and the variables that dictate where it will end up are so complex that only God could be expected to figure it out. The rest of us haven’t got enough information to do better than a wild guess.

Part of it depends on the balloon; what is its mass? its shape? its size? rate of loss of helium? Part depends on the wind direction, velocity, variables. Part depends on obstacles. Part will depend on heat, humidity, barometric pressure . . . and all these things can change from one square meter to another and from one moment to another. Then someone steps in and jumps up and snatches the string of the balloon and it all goes out the window.

I’m not saying God can’t direct all that or even that He doesn’t direct it from time to time, if He has a reason to do so. But I don’t believe that He usually does direct it. He set the earth in motion – wound up the clock, so to speak. The balloon goes where it goes, depending on what route it happens to stumble into. I don’t believe that God takes an active part in deciding that.

Let me try another analogy. I mix up a glaze from 25% kaolin, 25%silica, and a boron frit; 50%. I add some cobalt and some rutile in precise weights and approximately the right amount of water, and I mix it all together and dip a piece of pottery into it. I place it in the kiln with lots of other pots and set the computer to the firing program I’ve chosen.

Up until this point I’m controlling pretty much everything. But once I push start, I take my hands off. The heat does what it will, and I will get slightly different results depending on where the pot is in the kiln, how it relates to the location of other pots, how the air flows through the patterns I’ve set up (without giving it any thought) of pottery and shelves in the kiln. Other things that may affect the firing; barometric pressure, atmospheric temperature, mass of articles in the kiln. And the pot itself will have small dark blotches and places where the glaze is thinner and thicker, caused by the chance location of particles in the glaze, thickness of the walls, any carving I’ve done, etc.

This is all part of the beauty of the piece, and the beauty is in no small part enhanced by the randomness of the process. If I could control every tiny detail, I wouldn’t. While I take a chance that something won’t turn out as I would have liked, if I refuse to take that chance, I will also lose the chance of surprising beauty. If a piece turns out badly I can usually make some modifications and fire it another time or two.

I could use very stable, regular glazes that would produce flat and solid and perfect colors, but that’s not what I want. I want the wild organic randomness that is, to me, suggestive of nature.

I don’t believe that God dictates the location of each twig in a tree or how many grains of pollen a rose will have or the precise pattern of spots on a giraffe. He could, but does He? I don’t think so. It doesn’t seem consistent with the character of the God who turned the earth over to a fallible man (who He knew would fail) to govern it.

I think our God is wild and dangerous and free, and that He is dangerous enough to put many things into our own hands. He’s willing to take the chance, to take the loss when we fail, and He knows that He can work it all together into something spectacular – whatever kind off mess we might make of it. And what’s more, He’ll use us to do it.

So . . . I’m not sure why all this matters so much to you. You hinted that you saw disturbing patterns or signs or something and maybe you were worried that God was predicting some fearful thing to you? Maybe I misunderstood what you meant. It was just an aside and maybe I read too much into it. But what is it about this idea of randomness vs control that interests you so much?

I guess I see God exercising a sort of controlled randomness. He sets up laws of nature; He infuses energy; He pushes “start” and steps back. Things will happen more or less according to the parameters He’s set, but He doesn’t design every single cloud pattern, every dream a man has on his bed or every place a seed falls and sprouts and produces a tree.

Maybe He does, once in a while for some reason of His own, orchestrate some pictures in the clouds. I know He occasionally gives people dreams specifically to communicate something to us, and it’s certainly conceivable that He might choose a particular spot to plant a tree. But to do it every time? He’s creating something alive, not an automaton.

Live things behave of their own volition, influenced by what they are and by their environments and by their choices. But as they develop, they become more free. A trained pet dog may seem less free than a wild dog, but I think really, that the pet dog is more free. It can choose to obey or disobey. The wild dog can only follow its instincts. The pet dog could follow its instincts, but it chooses to have a relationship. It trusts its master and chooses to obey him. (Or sometimes not to obey, of course!) It can even learn so much that it begins to care for other animals – sheep or cows, maybe – and teach them to follow its lead.

I think that is God’s goal with us. He wants us free. No longer enslaved to instinct and digestion and hormones and fear and automatic reactions. We are being developed and trained and taught to be free.

Maybe people with more challenges than others are making a great deal more progress than they appear to be making. Let’s take a man with bad digestion (to follow CS Lewis). He may seem like a mean, cranky person, but because he has to work so very hard just to keep civil, perhaps he’s really miles ahead of the healthy man with a naturally friendly personality who doesn’t even have to try to be gregarious.

Or a woman suffering from borderline bi-polar disorder. Any rationality from her may be a tremendous accomplishment in the face of great odds – while another woman blessed with a sharp mind and a balanced personality may seem far ahead of her afflicted friend, but she in fact may be the weaker of the two. Things aren’t always what they seem.

So . . . I beseech the Father that I have, by some accident, said something that will speak to your heart and soothe your fears and help you to trust Father’s good plans for your health and joy and freedom.

Love in Jesus, Cindy

The question of God is what interests me Cindy.

The worse thing that could happen to me in this mortal life has already happened.

Now I’m just “hanging in,” "“carrying on,” and “counting time.”

The only one who can ever make things right again is God, and the only reason I can see for hanging in is that He might want me to–so the question of whether the idea of God is logically coherent has become rather important to me.

But unlike you, God would know how the air would flow though the patterns He set up when he closed the door and pushed the button.

If time and space are of His making, He’d know how the air would flow through the pattern He was creating even as He created it by placing the pots in their relation to one another–and not only that, but it would be Him making the air flow the way it did once He closed the door and pushed the button.

I mean, without Him, how could anything really happen in the kiln?

I guess I still don’t see where the randomness would come from (until contingent beings with wills of their own enter the picture and start doing things.)

I’d still appreciate any thoughts you (or others reading along) might have on that, but I did think of something else recently.

When I first started asking questions about “coincidence,” one of the first things I asked was “does everything mean something”?

The way I phrased that question was influenced by a particular web site, and a teacher who sees personal messages (for himself and “the Church”) in street names, signs, devotional calenders, news articles, and even whether forecasts.

One thing I noticed the other day is what the disciples, the Pharisees, and Our Lord said about a man who was born blind.

The disciples asked whether the man was born blind because of some sin his parents committed, or because (God foresaw that) he committed some sin.

And the Pharisees said he was altogether born in sin (apparently with the same ideas in mind that the disciples had.)

But Our Lord said (before He went on to heal him) that it was not because the man or his parents had sinned that He was born blind, but to bring glory to God.

In other words, both the disciples and the Pharisees read a meaning (a message) into the man’s being born blind (i.e. either the man or his parents, or both, were sinners), but Jesus said “no”–there’s no meaning (or message) here, only a purpose (and the purpose is that I heal him.)

So maybe saying that everything has a reason or a purpose isn’t the same as saying that everything has a meaning (or conveys some message)?

Still, a lot of children that are born blind aren’t healed, so I’d be interested in any thoughts you have.

Thank you Cindy.

Hi, Michael

I absolutely agree that God can know what will come of every minute detail in this earth. My contention is that a) we don’t know that He chooses to know these things (He may so choose, but we don’t know that), and b) even if He does choose to know, whether He set it up to happen in just that way, or whether many happenings are mere side-effects of setting up OTHER things that He does want to control and cause to happen.

The world is so complex that no one can possibly figure out all the possibilities. God can, but even He often has to take the best compromise. I’m thinking of a thing I heard about the human eye, and I wish I could remember it better – but it had to do with a purported design flaw in the eye. Later it was discovered that the “flaw” was necessary in order for some other part of the eye to work correctly. So I guess you could say the “flaw” wasn’t really a flaw at all, but more of a compromise. It was necessary in order to get the eye to work correctly under the natural laws of this world (which God set up, of course, and could have set up differently – but He had to set them up SOME way, and this is what He decided on).

So we look at this thing which seems to us a flaw or an anomaly and say, "Why did God do/allow that? But God knows that the “anomaly” was necessary. It played an important part in His plan. Or it allowed or facilitated something else that played an important part. Or maybe it was a by-product of some important thing God was/is doing, and will later play its own role.

The blind man was born blind so that God could be revealed by Jesus’ healing of him. But perhaps another man is blinded so that he can stop depending on his own natural fleshly strengths and rely completely on God’s life within him. Or perhaps someone looses her eyesight simply because she lives in a place where this is a danger. God wanted her there, the child of these particular parents, because it was necessary in order to craft her into just the person He is creating. The blindness is a part of that – it has to be, whether it was a primary objective or not.

I agree with Talbott that God likely had a limited number of choices in creating a world populated by free agents that meets His finished criterion. Just guessing, but let’s speculate that His criterion include that the world must a) eventually deliver each and every person as a redeemed child of God, b) reach this goal as quickly as possible for as many people as possible, c) produce the right mix of people to completely express God’s attributes through the natural world, d) deliver the least possible dose of human suffering, and e) produce mature offspring to Abraham who cannot be numbered (by Abraham, at any rate) and who shine like the stars in the skies.

How many possible worlds will meet these requirements? Many might come close, but only one will be the best. It will be a compromise, though, because in order to get the best outcome for everyone, Abba will have to allow a degree of suffering and sometimes rather horrendous suffering. We can’t know how much better or worse it could have been if He had chosen a different world to create, but if we trust Him, if we know that He is good, it makes sense to assume that He chose the best possible option.

Now a person could get all fatalistic and say that “Whatever I do, that’s what God planned,” but I think that’s seeing things from the wrong angle. We are free (more or less) moral agents, and while what we do may be foreknown, that doesn’t mean that what we do doesn’t matter. We have to struggle to mature, and we have to learn to obey Jesus’ commandments. We do it in His strength, but we also must choose whether to do it at all. Eventually, we will become mature, but it will take longer (maybe far, far longer) if we refuse whatever situations Father has placed us in to develop us into His grown-up, competent, magnificent sons and daughters.

He has given us certain commandments and He’s commanded us to obey them. That used to discourage me no end because I knew I couldn’t do that – just couldn’t, and that’s that. But I think I’ve begun to understand. When He gives a commandment, it’s like in the beginning, when He said, “Light, Be!” And the light was. The power to obey is in the command. The light has no ability to resist God’s command, but we do have that ability. So we choose to resist, or we choose to appropriate that power that came in the commandment, and to obey.

It’s not like we have no input, no effect. Otherwise, there’d be no point in Him giving us commands. He means for us to obey them. If we don’t obey, He’ll work around that (it’s not like He’s surprised), but we miss the blessing of growing through obeying that command, and perhaps someone else, someone we were supposed to bless, also suffers from our lack of obedience. Yeah, God knew that would happen, but it didn’t have to happen, and we genuinely made it happen by our bad choices. God just worked around it.

Okay, I feel like I’m rambling here – sorry; I think I got off the topic.

Coincidences . . . sometimes I do think they mean something. I tried to post an e-mail the other day and three times it refused to go through. Was God telling me not to talk to the person about that subject? Maybe; maybe not – but it wasn’t an essential communication, so I deleted it.

Often I’ll be researching a subject and I’ll notice an on-line friend posting about it, someone else in my circle brings it up, I click on a book I bought months ago and promptly forgot about, and find it’s just what I need. You could easily (and possibly rightly) ascribe natural causes to that, but I can’t help thinking that things like this are a nudge from God that He does want me to be searching out that subject.

I read a story yesterday about a couple of native church planters whose bike died a mile from a village they seriously didn’t want to stop in, but by the next day they had met with a group of “freedom fighters” (whom they would NEVER have talked to) and planted a fellowship. When they were ready to order parts for their bike, they tried it again and it started right up, so they went on their way, but since that time the gospel has spread throughout that area like yeast.

So yes, I absolutely think God sometimes causes coincidences. On the other hand, sometimes they’re just coincidences. I think it’s possible and desirable to see God’s hand in nature and in civilization. I don’t necessarily think that seeing a sign that says “no left turn” means the pastor should caution his congregation about liberalism, though. It may be that God WOULD speak to a person through a street sign, but I’d expect that to be a fairly infrequent occurrence. I guess I’m saying I wouldn’t make a doctrine out of it. The important thing is to know Jesus’ voice and be able to tell when He’s talking to you and when it’s just one of those things. You can explain it any way you like, but if God is trying to talk to you through it, and you’re trying to listen, He’ll get through.

I like what you said about meaning vs. purpose. It’s a good point. Sometimes things do have a meaning, and sometimes a purpose. Other times maybe any meaning or purpose will be so obscure that we wouldn’t know about them until God told us. Maybe the meaning/purpose is for someone else, or maybe the occurrence is just a side effect of something else that does have a meaning/purpose.

So . . . I’m going to quit now and go to bed, before I paint myself into a corner. :wink:

Praying for you and your folks,

Love, Cindy

Thank you Cindy.

What you said on this thread was very helpful to me (and more helpful than anything said on this subject by others from whom I might have expected more), but I’d like to add some observations from C.S. Lewis that I’ve also found helpful.

I’ve been reading his book on “Miracles” and it occurs to me that one way of looking at my question is “why isn’t every circumstance or coincidence a miraculous communication of the Divine will?”

To that, I think Lewis would reply “A miracle is by definition an exception” (page 72.)

He had this to say about quantum physics:

One great threat against strict Naturalism has recently been launched on which I myself will base no argument…the old scientists believed that the smallest particles of matter moved according to strict laws: in other words, that the movements of each particle were “interlocked” with the total system of Nature. Some modern scientists seem to think–if I understand them–that this is not so. They seem to think that the individual unit of matter (it would be rash to call it any longer a ‘particle’) moves in an independent or random fashion…Those who like myself have had a philosophical rather than a scientific education find it almost impossible to believe that the scientists really mean what they seem to be saying. I cannot help thinking they mean no more than that the movements of individual units are permanently incalculable to us, not that they are themselves random or lawless.
(Page 18,20.)

But he speaks of Nature (or the Universe) as an orderly system (or sub-system) we all share in common, and he also says “everything is connected with everything else: but not all things are by the short and straight roads…”(page 97.)

I’ve found his thoughts and observations helpful (and mention them here because they may be helpful to anyone asking themselves the same kind of questions I’ve asked.)

Perhaps an event can be meaningfully called “random” (or “coincidental”) if it has no “specific” God-intended meaning, purpose, or objective (except to provide the background for more meaningful “exceptions” to the rules of the sub-system we share in common.)

Does that make any sense?

That’s very interesting Michael – I have that book, but long ago I tried to read it and found it too difficult for me. I’ve read a great deal since then, though, and maybe I should try to find it and see if I understand it any better now.

I wanted to dash off a quick reply to you here and will try to write more later. What you say is definitely intriguing but I’m so sleepy for some reason. I was just scooting through my e-mails before going to bed and wanted to let you know I saw this. I’ve been praying for you and yours and hoping you all are carrying on and that God is continuing to conform you to the image of His Son, however hard that can be – and of course He is – but I have been thinking about you and hoping you’re getting along all right.

TTYL . . . Blessings, Cindy

Thank you Cindy.

I also found this interesting.

community.berea.edu/scienceandfaith/essay02.asp

It’s an opportune time, Michael, as I find myself drawn into an interest in quantum physics (whatever that actually IS) :laughing:

In all frankness, I’m probably not smart enough to gain a deep understanding of that field. I’m going to have to re-read your quoted material above a couple of times before I’ll be able to (hopefully) follow it . . . .

Okay, I think I understand now what’s being said. That strikes a chord with me. It’s beautiful and it seems right. (FWIW) What do you think?