The Evangelical Universalist Forum

From another Forum

Theology Philosophical
#1

This is from another forum, but I’d appreciate any comments any of you might have to offer here.

I really would appreciate thoughts from any of you who can help me think this out (and if anyone really understands the comments that were made on another thread about God’s self-sacrifice creating some non-God reality where non-determined events just keep percolating, I’d appreciate them taking the time to explain it to me.)

I’d also appreciate your prayers.

I’m fifty three years old, I’m not in the best of health, I’ve lost all that was of value to me here, and I’d like to figure some of this stuff out before I die.

Thank you.

P.S. I’d also appreciate prayers for my Father.
He also lost all that was of value to him here, and I’m afraid he’s losing his memory.

#2

Psalm 131

1 My heart is not proud, O Lord,
my eyes are not haughty;
I do not concern myself with great matters
or things too wonderful for me.
2 But I have stilled and quieted my soul;
like a weaned child with its mother,
like a weaned child is my soul within me.

3 O Israel, put your hope in the Lord
both now and forevermore.

#3

Thanks Allan, your words from Psalms comforted me today. I’m pretty much in the same postion, and it can be a challenge to be sure, physically, emotionally, and spiritually. And in another thread, I REALLY liked what YOU said about not just saving your own butt, it’s about ALL OUR collective butts in this thing called life together. That was a very loving comment and very supportive. I appreciate your contributions here very much. Thank you.

Blessings Allan,
Bret

#4

Michael,

I think that this sort of divine guidance (I call it reading by lightning flash) would be detrimental to our spiritual growth because it would short-circuit our need to learn to hear the voice of our Abba. God does occasionally use it. I can think of one notable time He used it to direct me to a certain passage – but after that, He took off from there and taught me some amazing things from that passage. (Here is the beginning post from my sharing this word in my blog, in case you’re interested: journeyintotheson.com/2010/05/a-new-word-from-an-ancient-prophecy-isaiah-32/

Most of the time, though, He does absolutely nothing when I open my bible at random. I can tell by the feel of having done it that He’s not in it – not this time. Occasionally, exceedingly rarely, He will use this. However it seems hugely obvious to me that He much prefers other methods.

I can offer you some ideas about hearing from Father because others have taught me: journeyintotheson.com/2009/02/how-to-hear-gods-voice-part-1/ If you attempt to do this, be sure to read all the posts. And if you find it isn’t working for you, let me know and I’ll share some other resources that might speak to you differently enough that it will strike a chord with you.

If you’re asking whether God speaks to us through random circumstances, I guess I’d have to say that while He might, it depends on many other factors. And the adversary may also speak to us through what seem to be random circumstances. So it’s difficult to tell. Unless you KNOW the Shepherd’s voice, you should never even consider random circumstances as any sort of guidance.

And when you DO know His voice, you should still test any guidance you might receive in any way at all for veracity. I believe my series of posts will give you some guidelines . . . Does it contradict scripture? Is it unloving? Have you died to your own will in the situation? . . . are some of these guidelines. But if you’re interested in learning to hear directly from Abba, then I do recommend you read my posts and if they don’t help, that you keep searching until you find the way that DOES work for you.

Abba’s is always the most loving, the most tender, the kindest and gentlest voice you can ever hear. While spending time hearing from Him every day does not solve all my problems, it is an island of peace in what may turn out to be a difficult day. It keeps me sane. :wink:

Blessings and love, Cindy

#5

So it’s not that He doesn’t will what we call random circumstances, but that He doesn’t choose to always speak to us through them?

When I think of that definition of the word “random” (Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective), that makes some sense to me.

Maybe instead of willing every circumstance for the specific purpose of sending us some specific answer to some specific question, some circumstances are willed for the more general purpose of not short-circuiting our spiritual growth in the way you suggest.

If that’s what you’re saying, I think it makes some sense to me.

Thank you Cindy.

I’d appreciate your prayers for myself, my Father, and my Mother (who’s not bodily with us here on earth anymore.)

P.S. Though what you said here makes some sense to me, something tells me it’s kind of a convenient way of interpreting the evidence.

Maybe that’s the agnostic in me, and maybe it’s the adversary, but it raises another question I’ve asked help thinking through.

Why does God value faith, and why does He test it?

I understand why God values all other virtues–love, mercy, compassion, and courage (and my mom had more of them–including courage–in one finger than I have in my whole body), but why faith?

Why is it a virtue?

Why does God test it?

Can you maybe help me think that one through?

#6

Bret: Thanks for those kind words. You were very encouraging.

Michael: I’ve always loved Prov 3:

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.

Commit your ways to God. Then go out, make decisions as best you can, take responsibility, “gird up your loins like a man”, and live your life. If God can guide Jupiter in its proper orbit, he can guide you also.

There’s nothing to say you’ll feel like you’re being guided by God. Often enough you’ll feel lost and alone. Christ also felt lost and alone. Along with that thief on the cross, you are keeping company the Lord of All in his darkest hour, understanding in your own body and mind something of his suffering. Those who sit at his table share his cup.

And then the conclusion. God final word. Reaching down, he turns our suffering into glory. “You will be with me in paradise.”

#7

So it’s not that He doesn’t will what we call random circumstances, but that He doesn’t choose to always speak to us through those circumstances?

When I think of that definition of the word “random” (Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective), that makes some sense to me.

Maybe instead of willing every circumstance for the specific purpose of sending us some specific answer to some specific question, some circumstances are willed for the more general purpose of not short-circuiting our spiritual growth in the way you suggest.

If that’s what you’re saying, I think it makes some sense to me.

Thank you Cindy.

I’d appreciate your prayers for myself, my Father, and my Mother (who’s not bodily with us here on earth anymore.)

P.S. Though what you said here makes some sense to me, something tells me it’s kind of a convenient way of interpreting the evidence.

Maybe that’s the agnostic in me, and maybe it’s the adversary, but it raises another question I’ve asked help thinking through.

Why does God value faith, and why does He test it?

I understand why God values all other virtues–love, mercy, compassion, and courage (and my mom had more of them–including courage–in one finger than I have in my whole body), but why faith?

Why is it a virtue?

Why does God test it?

Can you maybe help me think that one through?

#8

Faith is a virtue because the finite Me can never know the infinite Other with certainty. Trust comes before knowledge, because it must. I cannot even know finite others (like wife or friends) with certainty! When it comes to thinking, I cannot know if the assumptions from which I reason are valid. Nor can I be sure if my reasoning is strong. I can hold a mathematical proof in my mind if it’s a few lines long, but that pretty much exhausts my logical powers.

We little creatures must do the best we can, but in the end we live by faith from first to last. We have no other option. People who fancy otherwise cause untold mischief.

I’m a very simple soul. If God is good, he will save the good in us and destroy the evil. How and when I do not, cannot, say. If God is evil, we’re doomed whatever we do. Because there is no hope to be found in a bad God, and only an idiot would take a hopeless path, I choose to seek and serve the good God. I don’t know if he’s there. It no longer bothers me. Why get agitated over a question which is, of necessity, unanswerable? Anyway, I find the company on the hopeful road far more agreeable than the company on the other. I’d far rather spend an evening with Lewis, Tolkien, Chesterton and MacDonald than with Nietzsche, Russell, Marx and Mao.

#9

Hi, Michael

I hope I can say something that could be a comfort to you, as I can imagine how difficult and discouraging your situation must be. I took care of my grandfather during his last years, and then helped my mom take care of my dad, and now I’m taking care of my mom, who is also losing her mental acuteness. At first I thought, “My whole life is taking care of sick, confused people,” and thought, “things will get better once I get through this”, and then the next one, and then the next. Now I realize that this is just going to be a large part of what my life IS about, and if that’s the way Father wants it, well, it isn’t very exciting, but it’s needed and it’s the way of love. If that’s where God has put me, then that’s where I’ll be.

On the up side, He did heal me from lifelong depression, February of this year. That was huge. Why did He let me struggle with it for so long, though? :confused: He knows, and I’m sure He has His reasons for whatever fires He allows us to be forged in.

I’ve come to (I hope) the place of that weaned child, and I’m content to know that whatever I may feel at any given moment, I’m in His arms and I can be content and quiet. I don’t know how much experience you may have had with nursing babies, but if they’re awake, it seems they can never be quiet and peaceful for long in Mama’s arms. They sense that this is the place they get fed and comforted thereby and if they’re awake, they’re always rooting around and restless even when they’re nursing. They’re pushing with their little hands and feet, turning their heads, and so on. Never really at peace. But when they’re weaned, it’s as if they’ve been given permission to rest. They’re not looking for food from that same source and they can relax and enjoy Mama’s nearness.

But anyway, it looks like I went off on a tangent. I’ll leave it though, in case it helps in any way . . .

Regarding chance and randomness and such things . . . that subject gets a little technical for me. But it seems a little like art. I know there are going to be random elements in any work of art – elements that I may not be able to (or may not desire to) control. It’s possible that they’ll be detrimental, but usually I can work around them, undo them, alter them, or enhance them so that they add to the beauty and interest of the piece. Maybe they don’t look so good at first, and someone who looks at the work in progress MAY see disturbing patterns, but they don’t mean anything. That’s just the way the glaze went on the pot. It will look completely different once it’s fired.

I think maybe Father does something like this, too. There is the question of how a God who knows everything can even HAVE randomness, but I think that to a certain degree He can. He can splatter the paint with the toothbrush, and even if He knows exactly where every droplet will go, perhaps He doesn’t need to actively control its landing spot and perhaps He chooses not to.

Is the randomness designed to test us? Ehh, I don’t know – could be – but I tend to think it’s more just background noise. The background noise can help us to sharpen our attention, to teach us to hear His voice even over the babble of the world. The noise in itself may have little significance, but just its presence can still be a training tool. Like a child learning to tune out the household noise as he studies.

I think that there are certain things that work, and once God set down the rules, He had to work within them or start all over again with different rules. Perhaps in order to create the best possible world in which a) all are ultimately reconciled, b) all have freedom of choice, c) the least possible amount of suffering is experienced, and d) as many as possible are matured into firstfruits – mature sons and daughters of God able to minister His love to younger brethren (and other considerations, no doubt), God had to accept a certain amount of temporary frustration and suffering. Perhaps the suffering is even a part of the tempering process by which His children grow up in Christ.

Perhaps it isn’t even possible to produce mature, strong, character-filled offspring without allowing them to undergo some degree of struggle, hardship and suffering.

So, I think that the so-called random elements may be just that – random side-stories that don’t have a lot of meaning. They’re just artifacts of the creative process – scraps of wall board, left-over dried up crumbles of clay, drops of paint on the table, flour and a stray chocolate chip on the kitchen counter. These things tell us that a creative process is happening or has happened here, and the mess has yet to be cleaned up. I don’t think that every little thing has a deep meaning, or even necessarily much of a meaning at all.

What’s more, I don’t see any reason to suppose that these random bits are even put there to test or confuse us. They’re just part of the mess of creation. While God probably COULD control every minute aspect of creation, I suspect that He doesn’t do that in all (or possibly even most) cases. When I paint a picture or make a loaf of bread or build a piece of pottery, it’s an adventure. I do not, nor do I desire to control every aspect of the creative process. Every time I make something, it will be different from every other time, and I like that. If there are problems, I work around them, and usually the work turns out the better for that.

Every bump in the road changes the path I will travel and as a result the finished product will have its own individual presence. I don’t control the process; I dance with it. I think Father does that, too. If we take a wrong turn here or there, He will turn it into a new path of learning to know Him, and we will be a slightly different person than we would have been otherwise. Father isn’t interested in clones. I believe the randomness is one tool in His kit to make of each of us a unique and unpredictable masterpiece.

But are we supposed to be guided by randomness? No. This I absolutely KNOW. We are supposed to be guided by our Father. He said He would hold the hand of His Messiah and guide Him. And we are His body. He does the same for us as a body, and for each member of the body. He holds our hand and guides us, whether we are able to sense it or not.

And now we get into the area of faith. I believe that faith is our interface with God. Without faith it is impossible to please Him because without faith, it is impossible to KNOW Him. He gives us the faith, possibly not when we think we’re ready for it, but when He KNOWS we’re ready for it. When it is the right time, He gives to all people the measure of faith so that we CAN know Him. For some, that is sooner, and for others later, but He will make it good for ALL. And if we ask Him for faith (or even for a desire for faith), I do think that makes a difference, especially if we are persistent.

We don’t need faith to study the molecular structure of a bean. We can see and surmise and reason out things that we can touch and sense in the material world. We can’t do that with God. We have to use spiritual senses, and these work through the conduit of faith. We can’t drum up faith on our own, either. He will give it to us at the right time.

As to why He tests our faith, I think that may be a matter of semantics. The word “test” has far more than the meaning we commonly attach to it. It really carries more of the sense of tempering steel or checking the pitch of a guitar string, or measuring the temperature of fermenting wine, or trying a sugar syrup to see if it can form a string yet. He is developing and maturing and refining our faith – not just giving us an achievement test. “The trying of your faith works patience; but let patience have her perfect work in you that you might be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.”

So . . . I have no idea whether this is what you need to hear, Michael, but please know that I offer it to you with my sincere prayers for your well-being as well as that of all whom you love.

Blessings and peace,
Cindy

#10

Thank you Cindy.

I’m not an artist, I don’t think like an artist, and the way you said some things leaves me with some questions, but what you said has been helpful–and I thank you.

I thank you very much for those prayers (and may God bless you.)

#11

Hi Cindy.

I really appreciate your post here, and I’d like to explain what I was thinking when I said

I was thinking of what you wrote here

It’s because you started with that disclaimer that I thought it best to give someone else a chance to add something, but since no one has, these are some of the questions your way of approaching this subject left me with.

You said

“May not desire to,” and “don’t mean anything” are interesting comments (and I’d like to get back to them), but doesn’t the analogy of an artistic process that the finite time-bound artist lacks complete control over fall short when applied to God?

I think He can when He wills creatures to have wills of their own, and when they do things without seeing all the consequences.

I think some of that can be called “random,” at least in the sense of having “no specific purpose” (only the general purpose of having creatures that are more than automatons, and who have wiils of their own.)

But I’m concerned with coincidences that don’t seem to have anything to do with creaturely freewill.

With the exception of created beings, with wills of their own, I don’t see who or what else could actively control the landing spots.

If He wants the paint droplets to land somewhere, and there is nothing and no one else who’s gonna make them land anywhere, how can He avoid actively controlling the landing spots?

Now here is where you were very helpful

You actually said a lot here, and one thing I’ve been thinking about is the story of Joseph and his brothers (and Joseph’s dreams.)

Joseph had prophetic dreams, but was their purpose to let him know that he would rule over his brothers?

Was it to let them and his father know he would rule over them?

Or was it to do what they actually did (which was to raise the animosity of his brothers, get them to stage his death and sell him into slavery, and convince his poor father that he had lost his favorite son)?

When I think about this, it seems there might be some difference between saying that everything has some purpose, and saying that everything contains some message (even though, in this case, Joseph’s dreams did have a message.)

I thank you very much for your contribution to this thread Cindy, and now I’d like to try (for the benefit of any others who may have struggled with such things) to answer some of my own questions (with the help you’ve given me.)

Perhaps “random” would be a better word.

The free online dictionary defines “random” as

thefreedictionary.com/random

Perhaps “random” things serve the general purpose of what you call “background noise,” and perhaps it’s all a part of some tempering process, as you suggest (all of it having a general purpose, but not everything having some particular meaning or message for someone.)

I don’t think He can, but…maybe…He doesn’t desire every coincidence to contain some particular message for someone, and for some general purpose He wills that some things “don’t mean anything” (in particular.)

I think it does, because the whole thing wouldn’t be a process from God’s point of view, and there’d really be nothing to make anything happen unless God (or some derivative being He gave some limited freewill to) willed it to happen.

But again, maybe that leaves room for a kind of randomness if we define randomness as “Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective” (with an emphasis on the word “specific.”)

Of course, these are all just my thoughts, based on what you said, and I’d have much more faith in these “answers” if they had actually come from someone other than myself (and to the extant I owe them to you, I do have some faith in them, and I thank you.)

And if anyone here has been disturbed by my questions (or troubled by such questions themselves), I offer these answers for whatever they may be worth.

#12

Hi, Michael

Don’t worry about it – I didn’t feel offended. Not everyone thinks the same way.

I agree that God certainly has the MEANS to control everything – but my question is whether He would want to. Sometimes I even close my eyes to AVOID controlling everything I do. Some artist’s brushes have long handles so that when gripping them by the end of the handle, the artist can have less control. Less control often equals a more pleasing result.

Regarding our omnipotent and omniscient Father, is it possible He might want to allow things to fall where they may, and then work with the results, in order to obtain the desired ends? In life generally (not just with art) I’ve had to learn to let go and be okay with things perhaps not being exactly as I had envisioned them.

An example with Father might be the scene in Genesis where He brings the animals to Adam to see what Adam will name them. I always thought that odd. He didn’t know? He would have allowed Adam to give the animal an unsuitable name?

But I do that all the time. I’ll ask a student, “What do you think we should have here?” And whatever she says, that’s what we do, as long as it’s possible. The results are inevitably fresher and more imaginative and less contrived than I could ever have managed on my own. Not that Father NEEDS us in order to be fresh and original, but perhaps we are one of His chosen tools – to express Himself in the material world and to one another. Perhaps WE are that scraggly brush that makes such wonderful and unpredictable marks.

In handing the reigns of this earth to Adam and Eve, Father opened His hand and let His absolute control go to His children. Yes, He may have been able to do a better job – or maybe not. Maybe this is the WAY He did a better job. Maybe the random element, the working with mistakes, is more important than we know.

I’m sure there’s some of this – surely there are times when He wants a particular mark in a particular place. On the whole, though, I think He’s up to the challenge of getting the result He wants no matter what we, or the natural environment may do to stifle the end result He has in mind.

Wow! Great insights, Michael. I hadn’t thought of that, but I think you have a very good point. Thanks for sharing that!

Very deep, that. I will be thinking about this for a while. You know how it is when you hear something that you instinctively know is important. Again, thanks. This feels like a thought that opens doors.

Maybe they did come from Someone other than yourself, Michael. What kind of Father never speaks to His children? We often make ourselves unable to hear Him, but I feel He does get through at some point – when the child is ready to hear. What you’ve said here is going to be very helpful to me. Again, thanks!

Love you, Brother! Father loves you and never will forsake you.

Blessings, Cindy

#13

Thank you Cindy.

I kinda think He did.

Kinda like when Jesus asked Philip where they were gonna get the food to feed the five thousand.

It says “He Himself knew what He would do” (John 6:6), and I’m sure God knew what name Adam would give each animal before he named them.

To the extent that derivative beings with wills of their own determine events, I think He does allow things to fall where they may, and works with the results, but I don’t think every coincidence can be explained by the freewill of His creatures (and in the absence of some will, I don’t think anything would happen.)

I can’t believe anything is “unpredictable” to Him, but I think I get what you’re saying here, and I agree that working with and around derivatives beings with wills of their own is an important part of what God is doing.

I think that may make some sense.

I think that might depend on how you define the word “random.”

What did you think of that definition from the free online dictionary?

What do you mean by “natural environment,” and how is it capable of “doing” anything (independent of God’s will)?

How could anything happen within the “natural environment” unless God or some derivative being willed it to happen?

Thank you sister.

God Bless you.

#14

I thought that was a fine definition. But of course, as you may have surmised, I’m a somewhat imprecise person. :wink:

I think that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. I have a sort of a picture in my mind of Him carefully crafting his seed – the quantum singularity seed of the universe. Amazing. Like a firework designed to explode into the likeness of, say, a magical dragon. Only this one exploded into the universe – full of color and energy – He flung the stars from His fingertips!

As long as His children chose to live by His life, everything was fine. His life would continue to fill them and their home. But death started when they chose the wrong tree. When we chose to live by our own natural, finite life, the infusion of divine energy into the universe s-t-o-p-p-e-d. And that was the beginning of death.

“But the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope, that the creation itself also might be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.”

So I guess, in your manner of speaking, God first acted on creation to set all in motion, but when His children rebelled, their action in cutting themselves off from the life of God to have their own independence also cut off creation, subjecting it to the bondage of corruption. So that what we see are not life forces but death throes.

The hope (above, from Romans 8) is that when Father publicly presents His elect sons (not necessarily male, btw, but mature offspring ready to stand in the office of family representatives), the creation will be delivered from the bondage of corruption along with them – perhaps not instantaneously, but at the least, beginning with that event.

All that to say that the natural environment was, imo, started by God, but then allowed to decay and degrade on the rebellion of Adam. The agonies it goes through from time to time are the death pangs (and also the birth pangs) as the life of God, which was given to it in finite measure at the beginning, runs out. It has been made subject to futility and it must eventually die – but not before giving birth to the new creation! :smiley:

Love and prayers, Cindy

#15

Oh yes . . . I did get your note. Thanks! :slight_smile:

#16

Thank you Cindy.

Very poetic, but how long do you think God was crafting this quantum singularity seed of the universe, and how long do you imagine He waited before He flung the stars from His fingertps?

If He had no beginning, and time has no beginning, He’d be waiting forever, wouldn’t He?

Think about that.

An infinity of time stretching endlessly back, and having no beginning, and God trapped back there in that endless infinity before creation.

He’d be forever waiting, or preparing, for that beginning (and there’d be no beginning, no creation.)

Now consider the one thing that Science and Western Theology seem perfectly agreed on.

custance.org/old/seed/ch31s.html

Now do you see why I have trouble seeing what you mean by “natural environment,” or understanding how it could be capable of “doing” anything (independent of God’s will)?

Do you understand why I ask how anything could happen within the “natural environment” unless God (or some derivative being) willed it to happen?

#17

It makes no sense to say that time had no beginning. There can’t be an infinite number of past events. God is outside of time, and I expect that time began when He created the realm of time – that being the universe. Only I’m not sure what this has to do with the point, which was, if I remember, the question of how events should be able to occur in our known universe (nature, to me) without God or someone else directly controlling and causing them.

My conjecture is that God set the universe on course and would have continued to sustain it, had mankind not fallen. God withdrew His hand to a great extent at this point, and the top He had begun spinning continues to spin – but not forever. So while the energy He placed into the world at the beginning continues to keep things going, it is running down, and things happen as a result of this which no one actively caused.

Okay, so now I’ve read your quote. I’m so pleased to see that Einstein agrees with me. :laughing: Aren’t I the clever one? I find that so very amusing.

A brother in our group made a statement and then explained how hard he had studied to come to the understanding of this statement. I said, David I don’t understand all your reasons, but I agree with you. He asked why I would agree with him since I didn’t understand his reasons, and I told him that God had shown me the thing he said, months ago, in a dream. But David is miles smarter than me. God has to show me things directly – otherwise I’m sure I’d never know anything at all. David is capable of puzzling them out with a little less help than I would need.

No, I’m afraid I don’t understand. It seems a simple thing to me that God could create a world with energy and direction and natural processes – wind up the clock, so to speak – but an infinitely complex clock, with an infinite number of parts to break or stick or go spinning off into a location they weren’t intended for – and then, because of sin, withdraw His hand from it. As time goes by and the works begin to decay, things happen which God did not directly foreordain. Perhaps He knew precisely what they would be, but they’re an artifact of the decay process and not something He actively willed.

Does that make sense? I’m afraid I don’t see the problem here . . .

But I’m off to bed. Eyelids too heavy to stay up much longer, and I have a long busy day tomorrow.

Blessings!
Cindy

#18

You mean as time goes by for us, right?

Key word “actively”?

That’s interesting.

Thank you.

But the important point is that Einstein the Scientist (and probably the most brilliant scientist the human race has produced) had a knowledge of physics that led him to agree with Theologians like Augustine and Philo–who came to the same conclusion he did by reasoning it out philosophically, without using calculus, over a thousand years ago (and in Philo’s case, over two thousand years ago.)

That’s the gist of what the great minds have said, and you said it as well as they did (and in fewer words.)

I doubt that Cindy.

I think you’re more of a philosopher than you realize (and much better at this than someone else I know.)

Even if David is smarter than you are (which I still doubt), you got the better part of that deal Cindy.

I’d much rather God spoke to me the way you say He speaks to you than have to try to puzzle things out the way David does.

But since I do seem to have to puzzle things out, I greatly appreciate your help (and you’ve been more help than anyone.)

Thank you (and if you could maybe ask God to drop me a line sometime, I’d appreciate it.)

#19

It seemed to make sense last night, but it was late, and now I’m not sure what “they’re an artifact of the decay process and not something He actively willed” means.

Let me explain why.

You said

The fall of mankind was an act of creaturely freewill, so God didn’t actively cause it, He allowed it–I get that.

I understand saying that the consequences of such acts of creaturely freewill aren’t actively caused by God, but I’m not sure what it would mean to say that there are things that aren’t caused by creaturely freewill, aren’t willed by God, and which “no one actively caused.”

Take the 1989 world series as an example.

You could say that God didn’t actively choose the teams and players who took part in that series, because getting to the world series (or not getting there) has a lot to do with human freewill, hard work, and effort.

But what about the earthquake that interrupted the third game?

The timing of that earthquake had nothing to do with human freewill (or any creature’s freewill, unless angels and demons have some control over such things), and I don’t see how it could “just happen.”

You likened the universe to a top that God started spinning, and that’s running down, and you said that things happen as a result of this which no one actively caused.

I just don’t see how this spinning top running down can result in things like the world series earthquake, without anyone actively causing it.

If you’ve said something here (as it seemed you might have last night), I suspect “actively” is key, but I just don’t get it right now.

From a human point of view, the earthquake was caused by pressures that were building up on the San Andreas fault for hundreds and thousands of years, but if God is outside of time, isn’t that just another way of saying that the God above time is willing a certain amount of pressure on the San Andreas fault at every given point it exists in space/time, and that at the point we call Oct. 17, 1989 He is willing enough pressure to cause an earthquake during game three of that year’s world series?

How is that not actively causing it?

I think we agreed that whether such things are meant to have some particular meaning (or whether they serve a more general purpose) is separate issue , but isn’t it clear that God wills them?

What does it mean to say that this earthquake happened during the 1989 world series, but God didn’t “actively will” it to happen?

What does it mean to say that “no one actively caused it”?

That’s the part I have difficulty understanding.

Can you understand where my difficulty lies now (and if you still think that it makes some sense to say that nature does things that God doesn’t actively will, can you help me understand what you’re saying)?

#20

Well, He might will them, Michael. And in some instances I expect that He does will for such things to happen, for reasons best known to Himself. Still, I don’t think that it’s a requirement in order for something like an earthquake or any other natural process to happen, that God or people actively willed it. Certainly God must permit it, but that’s not the same as having an earthquake as a goal – something on the to-do list to be provided for. Maybe it’s more like a lack of maintenance.

Let’s say that you built yourself a moped. You really liked it, and you gave it to your son, but your son didn’t take care of it and neither did he ask you to take care of it. You urged him to care for it, and offered to help him, but he refused and even got snarky about it, so you let him alone to learn his lesson. The poor little moped started to get rusty; the oil got all dirty and grungy, and finally the engine seized up, the pedals stopped pedaling, and the paint cracked and started flaking off.

You didn’t have to actively will for those things to happen. All you had to do was to take your hand away and allow bad things to happen. You have to give the moped an infusion of energy in the form of maintenance from time to time or it will decay and end up as a pile of junk. You might guess what will go wrong with your work, but you don’t choose what will go wrong.

Of course God doesn’t have to guess. He can know if He wants to – or maybe He can’t help knowing. But aside from taking away His hand, it doesn’t seem to me that it’s required that He actively CAUSE these “maintenance problems.” He may on occasion, but it seems likely to me that often He does not. He just allows things to break as is their natural wont. All things degrade if we don’t add energy to them; some more slowly than others.

I just bought some peaches today. They’re in the fridge because if I left them out they would decay more quickly. I’m adding energy to them to prolong their freshness. If I leave them out, that doesn’t mean I caused them to spoil. It only means that I’m not actively preventing the spoilage.

In a sense, you might say that the death throes of the universe ARE caused by creaturely free will, since we, having been given the dominion of the earth, decided we would do it “our way.” Like the boy who doesn’t take care of his moped, we don’t take care of the earth. There are a lot of things we CAN’T take care of for the earth, like preventing earthquakes, just as there are things the father might need to do for/with his son in caring for the moped. But we said “Get out” to our Father and so, to a certain extent, He did. Stuff happens. Things break – especially when they aren’t taken care of properly.

Well, to take the top metaphor a little bit further, I’m sure you’ve seen what a top does as it slows down. Maybe some tops don’t do this, but the ones I’ve used wobble a lot as they slow down . . . :wink:

Love and prayers,
Cindy