The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Gehenna: a thousand word description

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#21

This is why I am somewhat convinced that at the end of the age, true believers will be found among many, and many who thought they were, will not be. Not based on this one doctrine, maybe… But, those that relish this doctrine of Hell… Well, it is difficult for me to fathom that the love of Christ is in them. I can understand a Christian saying “Well, I think the Bible does talk about Hell” but to say “Hell is God doing his best, while he turns his back on your forever” is demonic, in my opinion.

Just like when Edwards (I think it was Edwards) talked about putting a spider over the fire and watching it squirm in pain as it dies… Who the “HELL” does that? The Bible says that the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel… I am really believing that. I firmly believe many who think they are righteous and are not, and many who think they are not, are, actually.

#22

Even if I thought that everlasting Hell really existed, I would still recognize the absurdity of translating “Gehenna” as anything other than “Valley of Hinnom”. Recognizing this is an instance of egregious mistranslation is something that everybody–Christians (whether universalist or not) and non-Christians–can agree on.

#23

“Gehenna” as they all understood Jesus’ use of it, i.e., as a metaphor, could simply be translated as “destruction” because that’s the full import of Jesus’ use of the word… and such was pertinent to THIS LIFE, not the next.

#24

Now let us consider the thirteen occurrences of the Hebrew word for “Hinnom” in the Old Testament, found in the following eleven verses:
Joshua 15:8
Joshua 18:16
II Kings 23:10
II Chronicles 28:3
II Chronicles 33:6
Nehemiah 11:30
Jeremiah 7:31
Jeremiah 7:32
Jeremiah 19:2
Jeremiah 19:6
Jeremiah 32:35

Guess how the Hebrew words for “Valley of Hinnom” are translated in all the standard English translations I’ve seen? As “Valley of Hinnom” (or, as appropriate, “Valley of the Son of Hinnom”)! See how easy that is? When the Greek translators go insane and translate the Greek word for “Valley of Hinnom” as “Hell”, the rich connections between the Old Testament mentions of Hinnom and the New Testament mentions of Hinnom are lost. It’s very sad.

Now, for fun, let us see how absurd it would be if the Hebrew translators were to follow the ludicrous lead of the Greek translators in rendering “Valley of Hinnom” as “Hell”:

Joshua 15:8
And the border went up by Hell to the southern slope of the Jebusite city (which is Jerusalem). The border went up to the top of the mountain that lies before Hell westward, which is at the end of the Valley of Rephaim northward.

Joshua 18:16
Then the border came down to the end of the mountain that lies before Hell, which is in the Valley of the Rephaim on the north, descended to Hell, to the side of the Jebusite city on the south, and descended to En Rogel.

II Kings 23:10
And he defiled Topheth, which is in Hell, that no man might make his son or his daughter pass through the fire to Molech.

II Chronicles 28:3
He burned incense in Hell, and burned his children in the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel.

II Chronicles 33:6
Also he caused his sons to pass through the fire in Hell; he practiced soothsaying, used witchcraft and sorcery, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger.

Nehemiah 11:30
Zanoah, Adullam, and their villages; in Lachish and its fields; in Azekah and its villages. They dwelt from Beersheba to Hell.

Jeremiah 7:31
And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in Hell, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart.

Jeremiah 7:32
"Therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “when it will no more be called Tophet, or Hell, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Tophet until there is no room.

Jeremiah 19:2
And go out to Hell, which is by the entry of the Potsherd Gate; and proclaim there the words that I will tell you,

Jeremiah 19:6
“therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “that this place shall no more be called Tophet or Hell, but the Valley of Slaughter."

Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal which are in Hell, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

#25

While I do agree with you Geoffrey, overall, I was thinking this:

"Therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “when it will no more be called Tophet, or Hell, but the Valley of Slaughter;

Since the valley of will change names to the “Valley of the Slaughter” that, to me, is describing a hell like name to me. So, it is possible that the translators to have basically said “Valley of Hinnom” was GOING to be the Valley of Slaughter (based on this prophecy from, what 600bc?) and the Valley of the Slaughter is likely what Christ was talking about as the prophecy was undoubtedly going to come true if it had not already.

Now, in my opinion, this just reinforces the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The only problem I have with Jesus giving this warning as a warning for a future physical event is that why would a single person’s sin cause them to go to the Valley of the Slaughter? That makes no sense to me. But, if we use it as a metaphor for “Garbage Dump” which apparently, it was during that time period, then it makes a LOT of sense.

“And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee:” - Figuratively remove anything in your life that causes you to sin.

“for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” It is better to endure the pain that results from denial of sin (sometimes sin is fun, short lived gratification, but it comes at a price…) than to experience the pain of a broken and destroyed life. In the case of lust, this could be a destroyed marriage, death if it lead to adultery, prison depending on laws broken, STDs… So, yes, Jesus was absolutely correct to say that saying no to lust might feel like you are cutting off a part of your life, as you are in fact saying “no” to what feels good and seems harmless (at the time), but you do that to avoid that which will ultimately lead to your destruction and would be far more painful than a bit of self-denial. “God will not be mocked, a man will reap whatever we sows” and so if we don’t listen to the wise words of Jesus, we will experience the judgement he is clearly talking about.

#26

For the sake of illustration, let us say that I was absolutely convinced that all of the New Testament’s references to “Gehenna” are 100% metaphorical references to post-mortem sufferings. Even so, it would still be 100% unacceptable to translate “Gehenna” with anything other than “Valley of Hinnom”. Translators translate. They have no business operating in this way: “Well, we know what the word says. But who cares? We think it means such-and-so. We will therefore put our interpretation into the text and euphemistically call it a translation.”

For example, I believe that Jesus is the second Person of the holy Trinity, God the Son, incarnate. What if I published a “translation” that, instead of translating the Greek word for “Jesus” as “Jesus”, I instead translated “God the Son”? For example:

“And God the Son, walking by the Sea of Galilee, saw two brothers, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen.” (Matthew 4:18)

Why not? After all, Jesus “really means” God the Son, so I might as well “translate” accordingly. Of course not. That would be absurd. Exactly as absurd as translating “Valley of Hinnom” as something other than “Valley of Hinnom”. :slight_smile:

#27

You’re not being snippy at all. And I don’t know that there is documentation earlier than 30 AD, the Mishnah (approx. 200 AD) and Talmud (approx 400 AD) were written much later but record Oral Tradition that was handed down from some BC generations, especially taking note of Shammai and Hillel who were contemporaries, relatively speaking, with Jesus. And it was the Pharisees that promoted these Oral Traditions - which Jesus soundly denounced.

I used to give significant weight to this perspective, but have come to believe that Jesus predominantly referenced the Historical perspective of Hinnom Valley. It is the most powerful perspective, I think. To paraphrase Jesus - "Get the sin out of your life. If your eye sins pluck it out. If your hand sins cut it off. It is better to go through live maimed and blind than to end up with a life good for nothing but the trash, and even sacrifice your own children to the idols of your heart, and bring destruction to all whom you love!

This perspective speaks a powerful warning to the children of God, to believers. Unbelievers don’t care what it says. And mistranslating Hinnom Valley as Hell completely nullifies these warnings of speaking powerfully to anyone. Believers say, “No worries for me, I’m saved.” And unbelievers don’t care what it says. A tradition that nullifies the power of scripture.

#28

Fully agreed, but my intent was to perhaps show what people are thinking when they translate…

#29

Missionaries go to northern Germany, England, Scandinavia. The Latin Vulgate translation has translated the Hinnom Valley to be Inferno. So in trying to convert the Norsemen they use the pagan Norse religion’s term Hel, which was their afterlife for the non heroic ones. Fear aka the scare tactic is the most commonly used coercion, manipulation tactic around. Governments, schools, parents, spouses etc will use the I am angry at you tactic to get people to do what they want them to do. So way back when the Barbarians got a threat of going to their own Hel . And the missionaries believing the Vulgate thought the afterlife was an Inferno- thus it was real in their minds plus we all want converts, it makes our egos get bigger. So presto Hell. Luther translates his German Bible using a derivative “Holle” - and the English Bibles had already been using Hell- Wycliffe, then Tyndale. Every pagan religion had some sort of Hell even with Reincarnation into a worse state. English Bibles only axed the Apocrypha in 1666. So in reality the Church is very young.Basically only the King James Version was available til 1885. So the Church is so so young. A hundred years from now or 5 thousand years from now these ridiculous concepts like Hell and the Tabloid End of the World beliefs will be either forgotten or thought of as strange footnotes in history. Both are very vengeful. And people love vengeance and punishing the bad guy. Many popular movies play on that. So Hell and End Times so consume such fleshly delights. And they seem so Biblical. And novices gets on the pulpit and voila a voice feeds that carnal delight in hate, in murder and revenge. And every year false predictions of the end of the world come and go, books are sold and the church is fooled again. So there is no ECT Hell, and there is no End if the World. These twin brothers will go. The truth will win.

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#30

Welcome, EddieK. You make some very good points! I agree with you that,

However, I still believe there is temporary suffering in Hades for those who die unrepentant; but that Hades (filled with Satan’s POWs) will eventually be cast into God’s corrective lake of fire.

Again, I agree. I believe many people mistakenly conflate God and Satan, as I discuss in “Is God Violent, or Nonviolent?”

Again, I agree. There is no end; rather, all things will be made new. However, as a futurist, I believe there will indeed be a literal Antichrist, raptures, and the physical Second Coming of Christ (as I discuss in “The Temple, the Antichrist, and the Structure of Revelation”).

But specifically regarding Gehenna, here are four quotes from another thread titled “Gehenna is Hades,” showing an alternative viewpoint about it for your consideration:

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