here is a interesting view…
@FormerUR I dont think that Jews believe in hell. period. Also it has already been stated that Gehinnom is a valley south east of Jerusalem that has a long period through Babylonian times of offering live human child sacrifices to the god Molech. You and I can go visit Gehinnom right now if you’d like.
I do however think that scripture states there is the ‘holding place’ of sheol/hades. This place included everyone, believer- non-believer, jew-gentile, however was split between the righteous and the unrighteous.
From the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia entry on “Gehenna”:
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the “valley of the son of Hinnom,” to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim ; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and “Gehenna” therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for “hell.” Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Soṭah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words “very good” in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.
…The “fiery furnace” that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the “fiery furnace” is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell.
…Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream (“dinur”) falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (Ḥag. 13b). This is “the fire of the West, which every setting sun receives. I came to a fiery river, whose fire flows like water, and which empties into a large sea in the West” (Enoch, xvii. 4-6). Hell here is described exactly as in the Talmud.
…There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεῖς Ιστορίαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, “Abraxas,” p. 36).
…The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B. M. 83b)….Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b). They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked " ('Er. 19a).
the valley was deemed to be accursed, and “Gehenna” therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for “hell.”
That doesn’t mean that it is hell itself. Also key word “became” means that it wasn’t always like that from a Jewish perspective.
The term gehenna could be used as a way of describing similar aspects of hades if that is actually correct. However to say that they are the same place is not correct IMO. If we are to be exact on interpreting the bible we cant say that is the same thing. We cant conclude that in every case where the word gehenna is used that it is referring to hades. That would be incorrect.
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True, but that was only due to the translators and the translators eventually turned a valley outside of Jerusalem into a underground place where all who are not abiding by the said structure were doomed to everlasting torture, it has to be noted that how would a loving creator God who made creation the way it was made would turn around and throw that creation into a ‘hell’ as evangelicals see it.
Jesus heavily rebuked the Jews for their unbiblical traditions, there were various sects among the Jews with different eschatology, the Saducees believed in no afterlife at all as we know from the bible.
@FormerUR I just don’t see that to be correct from what I’ve studied so far. Saying ‘definitely’ is a gross overstatement of this topic as well. I think that theres much more to saying that it’s black and white when considering the almost 6 thousand years of biblical history to account for.
Also on a side not, I do have a problem with the term ‘everlasting’ as it should more appropriately be translated as ‘age-lasting’ or ‘an unspecified amount of time’ according to the Greek and Hebrew.
You said that you did not think the Jews believed in Hell.
Where is the holding place that you say scripture talks about? Are you saying the grave (Sheol) is a holding place? Please put forth the argument.
@maintenanceman Im saying that it is their belief that hell does not exist. The term hell refers to eternal conscious torment for people. The term hades/sheol denotes a holding place void of any torment for eternity. So what Im saying is that there is a difference by definition of the terms in the Greek and Hebrew. It would get more complicated when introducing any sort of corrective punishment for ‘an unspecified amount of time’ (eonian) but the concept remains that it could be a holding place for souls before a form of judgement.
Yes, some people think that. But others, like myself, see hell as one big “purgatory.”
Thanks for the view point Paidion, that is very well possible.
I agree.
Speaking strictly from a scriptural standpoint, it would seem that the gospels dealt with Jesus going to face the dead (maybe in your Sheol) and dealing with them. And if so, the deal was done and there would be no reason to think any other judgement was forthcoming. As to us here and now dying, I will say that I proclaim that Jesus did once for ever deal with all of the sin of humanity in rearguards to the Father God, and I at least am very well convinced that I and everyone I know and many I don’t know are all covered. Christ took sin away. Amen
Well I think thats a great thing to believe in. Im still in the mix as to whether or not Sheol/hades is done away with due to the Messiahs coming. But either way I just wanted to make sure the definitions of biblical terms are correct so we aren’t believing in something false or misguiding. Appreciate the views.
Amen, so go to all the nations and proclaim the gospel!
Well if thats the case then I stand corrected. I was just reading into this a bit this morning and views are definitely varied from a Jewish perspective. Would you by any chance know what parts in the Talmud include that? I would like to see this through.
thanks qaz, will look it over.
@ qaz, I checked one of the the passages:
https://juchre.org/talmud/rosh/rosh1.htm
Does this really teach everlasting punishment and what does it mean?
Wrongdoers of Israel who sin with their body7 and wrongdoers of the Gentiles who sin with their body go down to Gehinnom and are punished there for twelve months. After twelve months their body is consumed and their soul is burnt and the wind scatters them under the soles of the feet of the righteous as it says, And ye shall tread down the wicked, and they shall be as ashes under the soles of your feet.8 But as for the minim9 and the informers and the scoffers,10 who rejected the Torah and denied the resurrection of the dead, and those who abandoned the ways of the community,11 and those who ‘spread their terror in the land of the living’,12 and who sinned and made the masses sin, like Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his fellows — these will go down to Gehinnom and be punished there for all generations, as it says, And they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have rebelled against me13 etc. Gehinnom will be consumed but they will not be consumed, as it says, and their form shall wear away the nether world.14 Why all this? Because they laid hands on the habitation [zebul], as it says, that there be no habitation [zebul] for Him,15 and zebul signifies the Temple, as it says, I have surely built thee a house of habitation [zebul].16 Of them Hannah said, They that strive with the Lord shall be broken to pieces.17 R. Isaac b. Abin said: And their faces shall be black like the sides of a pot. Raba added: Among them are the most handsome of the inhabitants of Mahuza, and they shall be called ‘sons of Gehinnom’.18
Obviously not, since they are punished in Gehenna “for all generations” and then Gehenna will be consumed but they will remain (and still be pe punished?), it is the later part that might teach everlasting punishment and which I do not understand:
Gehinnom will be consumed but they will not be consumed, as it says, and their form shall wear away the nether world.14 Why all this? Because they laid hands on the habitation [zebul], as it says, that there be no habitation [zebul] for Him,15 and zebul signifies the Temple, as it says, I have surely built thee a house of habitation [zebul].16 Of them Hannah said, They that strive with the Lord shall be broken to pieces.17 R. Isaac b. Abin said: And their faces shall be black like the sides of a pot. Raba added: Among them are the most handsome of the inhabitants of Mahuza, and they shall be called ‘sons of Gehinnom’.18
I learned recently about this “for all generations”, it seems that it literally is generations of generations, this is what a Jew told me:
Ex 3:15 has the Hebrew l’dor dor לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר which is understood to mean “for all generations”.
It refers to an extended time which is generally understood to mean “eternity” but it doesn’t literally (or only) mean that.
PS: Your other quote from the Talmud states that some people will not ascend from Gehenna, but this does not rule out the possibility of annihilation.
Rev 20:13.
“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds “
If Hades and Gehenna are synonymous
Is the sea and Gehenna synonymous ?
I don’t think so. In Rev. 20:13, I might argue it is saying death will give up all the bodies of damned men, and Hades will give up their souls. I think Hades/Gehenna/hell is where the souls of the unbelieving dead go, regardless of where their dead bodies ended up.
It would seem there are two resurrections.
- The righteous dead will be reunited with their physical bodies at the Second Coming:
Revelation 20:4b-6
4b …they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead [the damned] did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
- A thousand years later, the unrighteous dead will be reunited with their physical bodies, face judgment, and be cast into the remedial lake of fire:
Revelation 20:13-15
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Furthermore, it has been argued that “the sea” in the book of Revelation is used as a type (that is, symbolically) of the ungodly nations, “an emblem of the troubled and sinful nations of the earth.” So the first clause of Rev. 20:13 for those in “the sea”—
“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds”
—may refer to those people spiritually dead in their sins, but still physically alive on the earth at the time of the last judgment. Again, perhaps the sea of lost living people who continue to reject Christ–who will have been reigning on earth in person for 1,000 years by then–is being referred to in the first clause, and the next clause refers to those who have already physically died in their sins and whose souls are POWs in hell.
I still think hell/Hades/Gehenna is the location of the souls of the unrighteous who have physically died, wherever their decomposing bodies (their “earthsuits”) may temporarily end up.