Well if thats the case then I stand corrected. I was just reading into this a bit this morning and views are definitely varied from a Jewish perspective. Would you by any chance know what parts in the Talmud include that? I would like to see this through.
thanks qaz, will look it over.
@ qaz, I checked one of the the passages:
https://juchre.org/talmud/rosh/rosh1.htm
Does this really teach everlasting punishment and what does it mean?
Wrongdoers of Israel who sin with their body7 and wrongdoers of the Gentiles who sin with their body go down to Gehinnom and are punished there for twelve months. After twelve months their body is consumed and their soul is burnt and the wind scatters them under the soles of the feet of the righteous as it says, And ye shall tread down the wicked, and they shall be as ashes under the soles of your feet.8 But as for the minim9 and the informers and the scoffers,10 who rejected the Torah and denied the resurrection of the dead, and those who abandoned the ways of the community,11 and those who âspread their terror in the land of the livingâ,12 and who sinned and made the masses sin, like Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his fellows â these will go down to Gehinnom and be punished there for all generations, as it says, And they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have rebelled against me13 etc. Gehinnom will be consumed but they will not be consumed, as it says, and their form shall wear away the nether world.14 Why all this? Because they laid hands on the habitation [zebul], as it says, that there be no habitation [zebul] for Him,15 and zebul signifies the Temple, as it says, I have surely built thee a house of habitation [zebul].16 Of them Hannah said, They that strive with the Lord shall be broken to pieces.17 R. Isaac b. Abin said: And their faces shall be black like the sides of a pot. Raba added: Among them are the most handsome of the inhabitants of Mahuza, and they shall be called âsons of Gehinnomâ.18
Obviously not, since they are punished in Gehenna âfor all generationsâ and then Gehenna will be consumed but they will remain (and still be pe punished?), it is the later part that might teach everlasting punishment and which I do not understand:
Gehinnom will be consumed but they will not be consumed, as it says, and their form shall wear away the nether world.14 Why all this? Because they laid hands on the habitation [zebul], as it says, that there be no habitation [zebul] for Him,15 and zebul signifies the Temple, as it says, I have surely built thee a house of habitation [zebul].16 Of them Hannah said, They that strive with the Lord shall be broken to pieces.17 R. Isaac b. Abin said: And their faces shall be black like the sides of a pot. Raba added: Among them are the most handsome of the inhabitants of Mahuza, and they shall be called âsons of Gehinnomâ.18
I learned recently about this âfor all generationsâ, it seems that it literally is generations of generations, this is what a Jew told me:
Ex 3:15 has the Hebrew lâdor dor ×Ö°×ּ֚ר ×ֽ֚֟ר which is understood to mean âfor all generationsâ.
It refers to an extended time which is generally understood to mean âeternityâ but it doesnât literally (or only) mean that.
PS: Your other quote from the Talmud states that some people will not ascend from Gehenna, but this does not rule out the possibility of annihilation.
Rev 20:13.
âAnd the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds â
If Hades and Gehenna are synonymous
Is the sea and Gehenna synonymous ?
I donât think so. In Rev. 20:13, I might argue it is saying death will give up all the bodies of damned men, and Hades will give up their souls. I think Hades/Gehenna/hell is where the souls of the unbelieving dead go, regardless of where their dead bodies ended up.
It would seem there are two resurrections.
- The righteous dead will be reunited with their physical bodies at the Second Coming:
Revelation 20:4b-6
4b âŚthey came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead [the damned] did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
- A thousand years later, the unrighteous dead will be reunited with their physical bodies, face judgment, and be cast into the remedial lake of fire:
Revelation 20:13-15
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 And if anyoneâs name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Furthermore, it has been argued that âthe seaâ in the book of Revelation is used as a type (that is, symbolically) of the ungodly nations, âan emblem of the troubled and sinful nations of the earth.â So the first clause of Rev. 20:13 for those in âthe seaââ
âAnd the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deedsâ
âmay refer to those people spiritually dead in their sins, but still physically alive on the earth at the time of the last judgment. Again, perhaps the sea of lost living people who continue to reject Christâwho will have been reigning on earth in person for 1,000 years by thenâis being referred to in the first clause, and the next clause refers to those who have already physically died in their sins and whose souls are POWs in hell.
I still think hell/Hades/Gehenna is the location of the souls of the unrighteous who have physically died, wherever their decomposing bodies (their âearthsuitsâ) may temporarily end up.
It could be Hades and sheol are synonymous, and Gehenna could be a different animal, but just a thoughtâŚ
I think belief in the existence of the soul after death or not, has a big impact on how one views the biblical definitions of Sheol, Hades and Gehenna. For myself as one who does not believe in a self existent soul after death, I canât see hades and Gehenna being used synonymously. I do however see that the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word hades being synonymous. I can understand how the o/t poetic language and personifications of Sheol and the n/t parable of the rich man and Lazarus can lead to the idea of a self existence after death were one is tormented, therefore drawing the conclusion of Gehenna and hades being synonymous. But for me that is all it is poetic language, personifications and parables. There are to many discrepancies to over come for me to believe Sheol and hades being a place for departed souls, let alone a place of punishment for departed souls. Therefore I see the Gehenna warning as like a shadow/ type of future punishment to be served after the second resurrection and judgment.It is said Gehenna burnt day and night outside of the the cityâs walls consuming all the refuse thrown there. Those cast into the lake of fire after the second resurrection, are found in chapters 21 and 22 of revelation outside the new Jerusalems city walls were Gehenna fire will burn, a k a the lake of fire.
Letâs examine all New Testament verses which contain the word Hades. The following are from the NKJV (bolding mine):
Mt 11:23 âAnd you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades ; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mt 16:18 âAnd I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
*Lu 10:15 âAnd you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades *
Lu 16:23 âAnd being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Ac 2:27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades , Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
Ac 2:31 âhe, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
Re 1:18 âI am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
Re 6:8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.
Re 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Re 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Hades and Gehenna cannot be the same thing, since Gehenna is the Lake of Fire, and Re 20:14 indicates that the writer saw in his vision Hades being cast into the Lake of Fire.
I suggest that âHadesâ is simply âthe grave.â None of the verses containing the word indicate anyone being conscious in Hades except Luke 16:23, in which Jesus gives a parable based on a common belief of the Jews in His dayâthat those who die go to a physical place which they called âHades.â In all other verses it is clearly âthe grave.â 'Even Acts 2:27 in which translators render ĎĎ ĎΡ as âsoulâ whereas the word actually means âself.â The sentence âYou will not leave my soul in the graveâ is a promise of my resurrection.
Jesus also gave a parable of the rich man who talked to his âsoulâ (actually he talked to himself or âhis selfâ).
Now examine the passages that contain the word âGehennaâ often translated as âHell.â
Mt 5:22 âBut I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, âRaca!â shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, âYou fool!â shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mt 5:29 âIf your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell .
Mt 5:30 âAnd if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell .
Mt 10:28 âAnd do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell .
Mt 18:9 âAnd if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.
Mt 23:15 âWoe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Mt 23:33 âSerpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
*Mr 9:43 âIf your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched â *
*Mr 9:45 âAnd if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched â *
*Mr 9:47 âAnd if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire â *
Lu 12:5 âBut I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell.
So we can see that Gehenna or âhellâ is a fiery place to which some people go after their death.
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Christâs view of Gehenna was very to the point. You can spin it any way you want but the fact is that Christ was speaking to Jews at that time and place and they understood what Gehenna meant. You can believe in shadows and observations all day if you want, but Christ was indeed talking to a select group of people at a specific time, and he wanted them to understand what he was saying. And the ones who listened were âSAVEDâ and the rest were in a period of last day destruction.
I know you cannot accept that Gehenna is a place of correction since you think âEverybody gonna be all rightâ because of Jesus sacrifice. Well, itâs true that âEverybody gonna be all rightâ but those who will not subject themselves to the authority of Christ are not going to be all right until they have been corrected in Gehenna.
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No, you are wrong, I think that anyone trying to make Gehenna something it is not is being facetious. You included. You want people to âpayâ for their misdeeds. I think God has forgiven everyone, and you really donât like that. I understand but to be honest, my position is much more in tune with Christs, and ultimately Godâs words. So there it is.
Yes, Christ did use Gehenna fire metaphorically to create a mental image of the coming destruction at 70 AD. He took a location and itâs imagery and applied it symbolically to an event that was to take place literally. There are many instances through out the bible were a specific event is described by language which creates a mental image, and that same language is applied again else wear in the scriptures to describe an actual event with in a slightly different context [ie] Jeremiah 31:15-17 and Matt 2:18.The slaughter of those in Jeremiahs day, was put forth using the imagery of Rachel lamenting over her children.This was used again in the gospel of Mathew.These Hebrew texts were lifted out and applied to an entirely different event, yet keeping the common theme alive, that being the slaughtering of Israelâs children. Although not specifically mentioned, I believe that the references to Gehenna fire that Christ used metaphorically, are also lifted out and applied with in a slightly different context with in the book of revelation. [ie] the lake of fire, the common theme being destruction by fire, either literal or symbolically,[outside] the cityâs walls.
According to the entry on âGehennaâ in the Jewish Encyclopedia (1906), âwhile opinions may vary,â:
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âGehennaâ is figuratively equivalent to âhell.â
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The idea that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem âmeans simply that it [Gehenna] has a gate there"âone of several gates. And really, that "the whole world is like a lid for Gehenna.â
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âIt is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their deathâŚ.The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B. M. 83b).â
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âThe sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).â
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âIt is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of GehennaâŚ.God says to the angel-prince: âI punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coalsâ ('Ar. 15b).â
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âAll that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b). The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.).â
While there is mention in the Jewish Encyclopedia entry on Gehenna/hell of the body and soul being reunited for a Day of Judgment, there is no mention about a subsequent remedial âlake of fire,â into which hell (Gehenna) will be cast; nevertheless, we read of hell being cast into the lake of fire in the later Christian Scriptures, in the book of Revelation:
Revelation 20:14 (KJV)
âAnd death and hell [Hades] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.â
Regarding the equivalency of Gehenna/hell/Hades, to quote from my original post,
Gehenna is NOT Hades and is Hades NOT Gehenna⌠period!
No, you are wrong in what you presume to be my position. When have I ever suggested that I want people to pay for their misdeeds?
Rather my belief is that by means of Gehenna, God will correct peopleâs character.
Right!
All right, lets reverse engineer this. So you say by means of Gehenna, God will correct peoples character. You said âI know you cannot accept that Gehenna is a place of correction since you think âEverybody gonna be all rightâ because of Jesus sacrifice.â
The inference is plain, and you make it multiple times.
NO⌠hell is a translation of âGehennaâ and the original meaning of Gehenna and our now accepted understanding of âHELLâ are two completely different things.
Hermano, waiting for your answer.