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No, actually, for now, I just can’t think of anything to add to my o.p. and follow-up comments.
It may well be that you can’t really argue your position, because that position is predicated on a translation that you have been told is the truth, or have read and believed, as opposed to examining the actual text. Which I unfortunately pointed out.
Good luck Bro.
“Hades” is the grave, and “Gehenna” is hell.
And ‘Hell’ is a product of man to ‘manipulate’ readers who would read and deduce that Gehenna was a valley outside of Jerusalem into thinking that it was some place where evil folks go. Where God would send unbelievers in some ‘specific belief’ to torment forever. Ah but alas, you don’t think the term torment forever fits, and so you include the idea that God will only torment until you turn to His ways.
Bad mojo Don.
Gehenna is such a valley, but it is used figuratively to refer to the process of God’s correction.
Otherwise, why would Jesus have given the following warnings?
Mt 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
Mt 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
Mt 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Mt 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.
Mt 19:10 The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”
Mr 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Mr 9:45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.
Mr 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,
Why would it be so terrible to have your dead body thrown into the fires of the valley of Gehenna outside Jerusalem? Why would it be so important to avoid that? Does it matter what happens to your body after death? And certainly no living persons were ever cast into that burning valley.
Because I live here and now in the USA and all the text’s you quote are dealing with that first century people. Don you gotta be smarter than that.
In other words, you don’t have any answer to my reasoning.
No, you refused to acknowledge the actual text of scripture. Gehenna is not Hell as modern folks imagine. You Don can say it is but at the end of the day, folks need to know what the real text is saying. There is no such thing as a Hell that is prescribed by modern evangelicals. It does not exist.
I agree that the term/ wording [hell]
Is not found within the Hebrew or Greek manuscripts. But Christ often spoke about the judgment of Gehenna fire and that of being rejected from the kingdom and cast into outer darkness. If Gehenna fire [ie] the sacking of Jerusalem, was the final judgment that befell those rebellious Jews of Christ’s generation, for rejecting both their messiah and the messianic kingdom. Then who are the ones that Christ continually warned about, who are to be thrown/cast outside of the kingdom of heaven in a state of great anguish ?
The Parable of the Wedding Feast
Matt 22:1-14.
And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.” ’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 [THEN] he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot,take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
If [all] Man kind had [already] been reconciled to God through the death and resurrection of Christ, and the messianic kingdom was established in AD 70 at/after the final Gehenna judgment. Then how is any one ever to be cast outside of the kingdom of heaven? Those who died in the sacking of Jerusalem were never cast outside of the messianic kingdom, because the messianic kingdom was never established on earth. Neither could they be cast outside of the kingdom of heaven after their final judgment and death, in the so called after life because [all] have already been reconciled to God through Christ. To me it would seem that the book of Revelation tally’s very nicely with Christ’s prophetic words, of a future judgment after that of AD 70, in which wicked persons will be found outside of the N/J and the kingdoms beginnings here on earth. Rev 19: 11-15, Rev 21:1-8 & Rev 22:15. So metaphorically Speaking, these persons are outside the N/J in a lake of fire, how can that not be metaphorically likened to Gehenna fire as follows :—-[Gehenna] referred to a garbage dump in a deep narrow valley right outside the walls of Jerusalem were firers were kept burning to consume the refuse and keep down the stench. It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, would be dumped ?
IF you identify yourself as a believer in Christ is there a problem believing these words of Paul… “…God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them…”? By your questionable If and already are your doubting this IS true already?
Well… absolutely no argument, i.e., Jesus’ gehenna and John’s lake of fire are indeed one and the same, i.e., metaphors of that coming end — thus to be ‘cast into gehenna’ equates to being ‘cast into the lake of fire’ aka AD70!!
There were many clinging to the OC mode of existence as their saviour… predominately the ruling religious elites. The phrase… “kingdom of heaven/God” speaks of the rule, reign and presence of God. Although in the Cross—Parousia event forgiveness and reconciliation was both established and confirmed that did not stop the likely consequences of their errant actions (of which they were given so many warnings to repent and believe the gospel) from still having devastating effect… thus the call to avoid such, etc; of which we see the same principle in play here…
Isa 44:22 I have blotted out, like a thick cloud, your transgressions, and like a cloud, your sins. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you.”
So, with regards to Israel when it came to remedial justice under the OC we find the following…
Psa 99:8 O LORD our God; You were to them God-Who-Forgives, THOUGH You took vengeance on their deeds.
Lam 3:31-32 For the Lord will not cast off forever. Though He causes grief, YET He will show compassion according to the multitude of His mercies.
So it was… there were times of punishment involving the outworking of temporal consequences because of temporal deeds, i.e., their actions had real time consequences in this life where Israel’s temporal pain was the fruit of their temporal trespasses… thus their judgment.
Isa 54:8 With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment; but with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you,” says the LORD, your Redeemer.
Isa 60:10b For in My wrath I struck you, but in My favor I have had mercy on you.
Jer 10:24 O LORD, correct me, but with justice; not in Your anger, lest You bring me to nothing.
These last two verses above show that the TRUE nature, goal and resolve of divine reconciliatory justice is always RESTORATIVE and NOT some heinous carte blanche for-the-sake-of-it wrath. God’s justice was met fully in Christ at Calvary, met fully in LOVE once for all.
Many indeed perished (Jn 3:16) or were carried off into exile (1Thess 1:9) in AD70… this was the net effect of rejecting their covenant renewal in Christ, who DID forewarn these things, giving them opportunity to turn and be saved… but as always there was a choice involved. Their demise in no way lessened the reality and efficaciousness of Christ’s bearing of Israel’s sin… He did that for ALL and those that grasped it benefited in this life surviving into the age to come — the age of righteousness (2Pet 3:13), aka post AD70.
[quote=“davo, post:55, topic:14408”]
There were times of punishment involving the outworking of temporal consequences because of temporal deeds, i.e., their actions had real time consequences in this life where Israel’s temporal pain was the fruit of their temporal trespasses… thus their judgment.
The Cross—Parousia event… did not stop the likely consequences of their errant actions… i.e., their actions had real time consequences in this life… thus their judgment.
[/quote]…
Do you observe that these traditional principles for how judgment worked continue in the present?
No. Those consequential outcomes were relative the covenant Israel… hence the prophetic warnings they constantly received to avoid such — to whom much had been given much was required.
Yes God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, and in doing so entrusted to
them a message/word of reconciliation. What do you think the message/word of reconciliation is ? To me it would seem like it’s a word/ Message that has to be received and acted on by the one hearing. That being why Paul further states “ Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.” does this not sound very much like, some sort of action has to be taken on the recipients behalf for reconciliation to be achieved between God and man ? [ie] BE reconciled to God ?
Were does the bible categorically state
that Christ’s reference to Gehenna fire was solely used in connection to the coming judgment of AD 70 ? were does the bible ever connect the two without some sort of assumption taking place ? On these grounds, why cant Gehenna be used metaphorically as a future punishment in the ages to come for Christ rejecters, who reject the message of the kingdom and the word of reconciliation? Just like the disobedient jews of Christ’s age
Also :—— Given Christ often spoke about those being cast outside of the kingdom/ N/J, and the fact that the book of revelation seems pretty accurate in backing that thought up. How is that the focus is often about how many died within Jerusalems city walls and on those who fled to the outside being saved in AD 70 ? The complete opposite to what Christ Himself was thinking, at some points in his teachings ?
Matt 8:11-12.
*11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob *in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
What happened to all those unfaithful Jews who died under Gods judgment at AD 70 ? If their punishment was to be a temporal pain for temporal trespasses, then I would assume that upon physical death, these Jews would have been immediately resurrected along with Abraham and company to join Christ in the newly established kingdom, therefore they are never actually cast out of the n/c kingdom. How does this fit with the above scripture, that seems to more than emphasise they won’t be present in the kingdom at the time of its bringing in ? Also :———- Are we to believe that God reconciled all the world to himself through Christ, which in turn would amount to no future judgment. BUT at the same time stored up a terrifying judgment [ie] AD 70 for them who rejected him via his son [ie] I will forgive you BUT still allow you to be punished unmercifully even AFTER [ALL] had been reconciled. Doesn’t this understanding not contradict
itself ? :——- If the kingdom was taken from those Jews and given to another who will produce fruit Matt 21:43 then surely the message that goes with that kingdom applies to the others whom it has been given [ie] be reconciled through trough Christ in repentance,or face judgment Matt 4:17. What is the basis of your objection, to those who reject Christ and the kingdom message now, being judged at some future point in Gehenna fire to bring about the realisation of their error, so that they can act/respond to the message of reconciliation. Why is this any more heinous than that of the A D 70 judgment ?
You don’t have to believe… “that God reconciled all the world to himself through Christ” — it seems plenty who consider themselves believers don’t. As to judgment… that certainly came — believers “works” were judged and rewarded accordingly; it’s all there in the bible.
Thanks for your clear response. Do you then not perceive that “this life” still brings “the likely real time consequences of errant actions and temporal deeds”?? And doesn’t Paul indeed warn even non-Israelite Gentiles about the continued results of errant choices, such as that “we reap what we sow”?
Generally speaking, I’d say one’s life typically testifies to the reality of consequential actions… more or less.
Thanks, me too. Indeed, I’d thus put it that affirming this reality about life means that your statement about O.T. Israel, "their actions had real time consequences in this life and “temporal consequences” result because of “temporal deeds,” continues to describe how reality operates both before and after the Christ event.
Well…my man. Here are all the NT passages containing the word “Gehenna”. Nearly all of them are the words of the Lord Jesus. Tell me truly whether or not most of them teach a painful consequence for wrongdoing in Gehenna, the Lake of Fire. Then tell me whether of not I “refuse to acknowledge the actual text of scripture.”
Mt 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery Gehenna.
Mt 5:29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into Gehenna.
Mt 5:30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into Gehenna.
Mt 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
Mt 18:9 "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery Gehenna.
Mt 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell Gehenna as yourselves.
Mt 23:33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell Gehenna?
Mr 9:43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire,
Mr 9:45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into Gehenna.
Mr 9:47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into Gehenna.
Lu 12:5 "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by Gehenna.
Bob… can you be a little more judicious when you quote me. This above has me quoting you to which you then respond as per argument… BUT I didn’t quote you as you are attributing me as doing; this continues to be a little frustrating.
Well for mine, I’d qualify your thoughts just slightly, as per… natural consequences to natural actions are a natural given, no matter the age or scenario or context. But for Israel of the OC era alone there was a significant difference to said actions / consequences relative to their being obedient to their divine calling, such as was unique to them. That past reality is best reflected in all those texts I provided earlier which are worth repeating…
Thus certain consequences for certain actions which were RELATIVE TO Israel’s unique priestly call and function in the service of God played out to where in the given moment it may have been harsh and yet its end was always for their betterment. Interestingly Peter notes that judgment starts at the house of God… which sheds light on your partial quote re: sowing and reaping — its immediate prelude reads… “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked…” — Paul is speaking to believers 
I’m a bit unclear. In concluding that consequences were “different” for Israel’s era, and that the Christ event “did not stop the likely consequences of their errant actions,” are you implying that Christ’s work now does stop “the likely consequences of the errant actions” of God’s people, or that God was harsher upon his people’s disobedience under the OC than he now is in the new covenant era?
Does your filling out of Peter’s warning to believers that God won’t be mocked when disciples of Jesus sow poorly suggest that we who believe should be wary of the consequences that God will administer to our disobedience just as Israel should have been of theirs?