The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Gehenna on the view of Jews at the time of Christ

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

Johanan Ben Zakkai, a disciple of Hillel, said something that scares me:

** If I were being taken today before a human king who is here today and tomorrow in the grave, whose anger if he is angry with me does not last forever, who if he imprisons me does not imprison me forever and who if he puts me to death does not put me to everlasting death, and whom I can persuade with words and bribe with money, even so I would weep. Now that I am being taken before the supreme King of Kings, the Holy One, blessed be He, who lives and endures forever and ever, whose anger, if He is angry with me, is an everlasting anger, who if He imprisons me imprisons me forever, who if He puts me to death puts me to death for ever, and whom I cannot persuade with words or bribe with money — nay more, when there are two ways before me, one leading to Paradise and the other to Gehinnom, and I do not know by which I shall be taken, shall I not weep?
**

After I read that, I though that the teaching of annihilation of the soul in the mishna is something who come in the second or third century. Maybe Rabbi Akiva was the one who put the idea of annihilation of the soul in the second century. But then I read this from Farrar´s Mercy and Judgament:

So the sayings of Hillel in the Mishná are recorded from the first century? I have doubts because Zakkai was a pupil of Hillel and he was an ECT suporter. There was an School of Hillel in the second century who develop the doctrine of annihilation of the soul?

I read that Zakkai was the one who added the teachings of Hillel and Shammai in the Mishná. Is this true?

#2

I think this quote would be quite in line with annihilationism.

#3

there were multiple views at the time of Christ, right? but Jesus did slightly mock the idea of hopeless hell with the Lazarus/rich man parable…

He said that if they’d paid attention to Moses and the Prophets, they’d know better…which to me sounds like, despite using Gehenna as imagery (borrowed from Isaiah, it seems), He was dismantling the pagan legalistic dogma they’d absorbed in the time leading up to His day…pagan dogma that included an afterlife involving torment.
…or it’s possible He was threatening them with it…or saying that if they were so keen to send people there, they’d better watch out: God COULD make it happen, if He wanted to.

I really don’t know…i am throwing ideas out. the idea that Jesus subverted the teaching of the Pharisees is pretty well known and accepted…is it a huge stretch to see Him doing that with their ideas of an afterlife?

i wish to distinguish this from the Christian post revelation eschatology, as the Jews wouldn’t have had that concept in their framework…it would have literally been death -> judgement for them. many of us add the extra layer of death->waiting in some fashion->judgement, which i don’t think He was addressing…so trying to force the Jewish view into our view might not be the right approach anyway, especially with the work He was doing subverting so many of them.

hopefully that makes some sense and isn’t total rot…

#4

A few things come to mind immediately.

1st, Jesus specifically and repeatedly denounced the doctrine, attitude, and practices of the Pharisees. And Jesus’ warnings concerning being cast into Hinnom Valley are quotes from Jeremiah and Isaiah, not the Pharisees. Thus I understand Jesus’ metaphorical use of Hinnom Valley through the lense of Jeremiah/Isaiah, not the lense of the Pharisees various beliefs concerning remedial and retributive age-to-come punishment.

2nd, the word translated “everlasting” was likely “olam” which does not mean “everlasting” as in an unending length of time but speaks of that which is spirital, beyond site and understanding, having to do with God and the messianic age to come.

3rd, Johanan’s quote is not meant to say any of the punishments will certainly happen to anyone, but is meant to draw a distinct contrast between the very limited abilities of a human king and the unlimited abilities of the King of kings, God. I agree that God could annihilate me, God could torture me forever, but based on His revealed character I don’t think He will.

4th, the Pharisees had various beliefs concerning punishment of sin in the afterlife, including various levels of remedial punishment of sin and possibly annihilation after an indefinitely long period of time. Thus even Johanan’s use of Gehenna does not necessarily affirm either ECT or Annihilation.

5th, it’s likely that Johanan had faith in God to ultimately bring him to Paradise though he might go to Gehenna for a season.

#5

i just had a thought:
Jesus spoke of the wise man who built on stone, and the foolish man that built on sand.
Israel was given the law, and they had the option to build on the stone (the Spirit of the Law) or on the sand (the letter).
now this is blatantly me reading a pattern in where there may be none, but Jesus did so much subversion of the constructs they had built on the letter of the law…maybe i’m not too far off base here
and then He would be necessarily subverting pretty much every thought they had amassed building on their rubbish foundation…which would include, towards the end of the OT period, the theories about a judgemental afterlife.

#6

The last few days I’ve been stuck by the concept that speaking of being cast into Hinnom Valley had as much, if not more, emotional impact for the Jew as referencing Auschwitz and the Holocaust. The destruction of Jerusalem and bodies being cast into Hinnom Valley, consumed by maggots (worms that don’t die), dogs, and fire, was understood as the horrific results of rejecting God, sacrificing their children upon the altar of Molech, and experiencing the judgment of God via the Babylonians, as prophesied by Jeremiah and Isaiah. It was an emotional racial scar that was reopened, raw and bleeding, by the Roman occupation of their land. Though being horrendous, resulting in generations of captivity, weeping and gnashing of teeth, it was understood to be the righteous judgment of God!

It’s no wonder that Jesus wept over Jersualem seeing Rome destroying Jerusalem like the Babylonians did. It’s no wonder He repeatedly called peopl, the Jews to repentance using that metaphor, taping into the open and festering wound that Hinnom Valley horrifically represented.

#7

Have you talked with Jews personally or found historic evidence? This connotation of Gehenna would very well explain the abscence of the term in Paul’s writings addressed to gentiles.

#8

I haven’t talked with any Jews on this subject. This historical perspective of Hinnom Valley comes from Jeremiah’s and Isaiah’s use of it in warning of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians in judgment by God for sacrificing their children in the flames of their idol Molech which they built in Hinnom Valley.

And you’re correct about why Paul does not warn of Hinnom Valley, because he did not write to the Jews. In fact, it is Matthew that almost exclusively quotes Jesus warning of being cast into Hinnom Valley. Mark and Luke only quote one passage each with Jesus warning of Hinnom Valley; and both of those are connected to hyperbole (cut off hand, pluck out eye). Considering Matthew wrote to the Jews, possibly from Jerusalem just prior to the 70 C.E. destruction by Rome, it makes sense that Jesus’ warnings concerning Hinnom Valley would have warned loud and clear of the then coming destruction of Jersalem to Matthew, and thus should speak primarily of that to us.

It is very sad that Gehenna is “MISTRANSLATED” as “Hell” in most English translations. Gehenna means “Hinnom Valley”. It is a real place,with a real history, and powerful proverbial connotations. To mistranslate what Jesus said and impose one’s interpretation on what Jesus said is down-right evil, twisting/perverting the word of God! It should be translated as “Hinnom Valley” and left for people to research to find out what Jesus meant through it’s metaphorical usage. If one interprets Jesus’ warnings concerning Hinnom Valley strictly literally then it limits Jesus’ warnings to the destruction of Jerusalem.

#9

I’m inclined to believe that the judgment of Gehenna already took place at the destruction of Jerusalem. On the other hand, Gehenna developed to be the name of a place of infernal punishment, be it everlasting or not.

Do you think it’s reasonable that some Pharisees who adopted the belief in the immortality of the soul misunderstood Jesus’ teaching concerning Gehenna and adopted the word as a term for “hell”?

According to what I have read, Gehenna did not appear in any Jewish writings as the name of “hell” prior to Christ.