Hello- I am new here and this is my first post beyond the intro.
I am not sure where to begin I have a mind full of questions, concerns, etc as you will read. I have a definite spirtual problem and that is probably due to my immaturity in faith and probably life, too. My heart and mind are fickle and fluctuates back and forth depending on the arguement I hear. So one minute I can be totally convinced that something is true and depending on the dicussion or opinion of someone else, my views can drastically change. It is so frustrating! As I stated in my intro I am a RC, always was the questioning type, and if I got on a topic I didn’t stop researching it until I felt I had learned all there was for me to learn about it. I studied the holocaust from survivor’s point of view for about two years, for example. So although I have always been a Christian, and probably lukewarm Catholic at best most of my life, I never really thought of serious faith matters until this past year. So I come with all sorts of questions and if anyone would like to help me- I would appreciate it greatly.
Free will is the current matter that I have a real issue with. Jehovah’s Witness’s used to come and study with me for 6 years and we would read the bible and talk about prayer more than I had ever done with anyone in my own faith. I would say that they helped me through so much over the years, but I could never accept their faith proclamations. They had a “free will” belief system that I am sure most here are aware, and usually I found their arguements compelling. That Adam and Eve were perfect but somehow sinned anyway. I always thought “where did the sinful thoughts come from since they were perfect?” and the answers didn’t really satisfy me. If God knew they would sin and ruin the world He created for them, then why did He just not do it. They said free will, that man has to choose God and not his own way. Ok, fine, but here we are in a world with soooo many confusions,distractions, religions, cults etc- how the heck are we to “know” the truth. I think I know the truth, but someone comes up with a good arguement as to why it is not the truth and I think, well I guess I don’t really know if that is THE truth. We see examples like Saul being blinded by God, Jesus saying noone comes to the Father unless he is drawn, faith is even a gift from God. All these things indicate that we really do not have much of a choice when it comes to matters of having faith. But yet in Hebrews, Paul speaks of falling away and not being able to “go back” without crucifying Christ again. And someone has to choose to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and believe me I am totally panicked about that one- have I done it? Will I? How do I know?
AM I clay? Or am I on my own? Can clay even consent to being clay?
Today I read a blog post that indicated God allowed sexual abuse to happen to this one woman her to fulfill His purpose in her life. Another person totally rejected that God would want that sort of thing to ever happen to another and would not will it to occur. Another person wrote that maybe God’s will isn’t always just and good in our human eyes. I agree with all these statements-ahhh!!. God could allow evil to occur to serve a purpose, God doesn’t want us to sin, God’s justice and will doesn’t always fit our definitions. Then I say to my ever-confused brain- well then, what about hell? Could God’s “justice” not make sense to our human idea about it? Does it have to look good in our human eyes for it to be true? Believe me, if I think about the mainstream Christian concept of hell and how many appear lost, I am totally and completely depressed. I don’t even know what to do with myself with that info. I feel that evangelizing would be such a terribly depressing waste of time. But, I am still obligated to preach the Gospel, even if I don’t see it as really Good News.
I guess I am wrestling with many issues, and in the front is “who is my God?” I want to trust Him and know He is GOOD. I feel very selfish if I know or think I am OK with God that he is helping Me work out my salvation, but others…not so much. Is God not enough for me? So this is what my crazy brain is doing to me. 
Thank you for reading.
I hear you. I’m the same way. Keep on trying and after a while some of it starts to stick. It has for me anyway. I just go by what works for me.
I guess I would start with this question - where am I now? Pretend you are in a foreign country. It might be France, Argentina, Gallifrey, etc. What does my GPS system say?
Let’s see now. We had some talks with Jehovah’s Witnesses. So pretend we are in the Tardis or aboard the Enterprise. Where do you want Captain Jean-Luc Picard or the Doctor to travel to? If we go talk to the Witnesses, you see they have their own bible translation, viewpoint, etc. Let’s start with something simple. Perhaps purchasing or getting a copy from your local library of The Story of Philosophy: The Lives and Opinions of the World’s Greatest Philosophers by William Durant. It’s an easy and fun read. It might shed some light on how historical figures saw free will and determinism. If you want the Wiki version, look at free will. And you might do weird things, like I did last night
Watched the Journey Home on the Catholic Channel. Last night, it was a former Lutheran woman converting to the Catholic faith.
Then I watched part 1 of Revelation: the end of days on the History channel. Interesting show on how the world might end. During the commercials, I saw what the Booze Traveler was drinking in Morocco. Fermented camel or horse milk? None for me, thanks.
So try to weed this out of your musings.
Where do you want people to go in this discussion?
What question or questions do you wish to explore?
Randy- I am not sure exactly what I am asking or even saying. I am not sure of much, except that I believe in God because of my experiences with God. Where I am at the moment is: I want UR to be true, I want it to be true with all my heart. I don’t know what my relationship with God is if it’s not true, and that scares me because if it is not true, He is still God and I am a puny human. I am to love Him regardless of what he may or may not do, and I guess my “conditions” scare me. Does that make sense?
My other issues may not really pertain to this board, seeing as they are more about religion. I see the wisdom of reading the original texts of the New Testament, and understanding the Greek translation of words and meanings. It seems to me that the RC might have not translated the texts properly when translating them to Latin. Am I correct in this? So, I guess I am not sure how to know if what I have learned is correct, considering these possible errors. Having trust issues with “Authority” that I am bound to submit to as far as religion is concerned.
Free will, understanding it- how to feel safe with God, how to “know” that I will be ok and so will the people I love dearly. How perfect love casts out fear, because I am often scared out of my mind.
Clear as mud. 
There are a few regular posters here, who are good presenters of UR. You just need to go to forum threads, where they discuss UR with someone. Usually, the story is very similar. Some young person might have problems with the teaching of hell, etc. And some of our regulars give them good material and arguments to think about and reflect upon. Sometimes I think a section of FAQ might be nice here, so folks can see common answers from past questions. As you are well aware, the Roman Catholic Church will interpret scripture for members. The other end of the spectrum is the Protestant world, where it is a free-for-all in different interpretations and understandings. Think of it like cattle ranches in the old west. As long as I remain in the Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, etc., cattle ranch, I am OK. But some of the ranch hands might get sick of the ranch and wish to create their own variation. Or you can see the big RC or EO ranch over yonder, that has most of the hands and cattle.
Hi 3sb,
Tom Talbott (who wrote The Inescapable Love of God), has been helpful to me on the topics of free will and how to interpret scripture. This paper is good on free will:willamette.edu/~ttalbott/Grace-Character-final.pdf It’s a bit of a challenging read.
Here’s a smaller blurb by him on the same topic:willamette.edu/~ttalbott/freewill.html
Here’s something on the unpardonable sin: willamette.edu/~ttalbott/unpardon.htm
Here’s a fun post of his that touches on the topic of interpreting the bible: willamette.edu/~ttalbott/bible.html
And he has started a thread here recently on bible interpretation as well:[Interpreting the Bible as a Whole, Part I)
Talbott’s book The Inescapable Love of God is his primary text. It was pretty foundational reading for me in learning about UR. The second edition just came out, which I have not read yet. The book: "Universalism Salvation? The Current Debate, refines his arguments a bit, and other scholars respond to him (both Arminian and Calvinist), and then he responds to their critiques. I really liked this book, because I think he absolutely crushes the other authors’ arguments but always in his gentleman-like and charitable manner. This book sealed the deal for me that both Free-Will (Arminian) and Sovereignty of God (Augustinian-Calvinist) perspectives are correct, but only partially. They can only be reconciled with a Universalistic perspective.
Hope these are helpful,
Caleb
Thank you for those links, Caleb.
3SB
I really encourage you to get Tom’s “The Inescapable Love of God.” It will give you a lot to chew on regarding free will, in particular. If you can’t afford the print version (it’s POD – print on demand – and that’s the reason for the price), then get the Kindle version. You can read it on Amazon’s cloud if you haven’t got a Kindle, or download one of their free apps.
Meantime, Tom hosted a thread here: Free Will: Its Essential Nature and Implications that you might also find helpful.
With regard to being easily swayed, I also have had that problem in the past, and I urge you to resist it. This is just a habit of your brain. It can be changed, and now is an excellent time to work on rerouting those tendencies. Rather than just accepting that UR is true, I encourage you to check it out thoroughly. Really get into it. When I started reading here, I also read a number of books written against Christian universalism, and also some in defense of Hell. (Imagine defending hell!) In addition, I read the books I posted for you on your other thread, and more. I wanted to see whose arguments were stronger and whether there were arguments for hell that CU could not answer credibly. This sort of behavior sticks, especially if you keep it up. Think deeply and long; read extensively. This question is important to you, so go for it.
En route, all sorts of other questions will come up that you’ll want to pursue, but I won’t tell you what they are. I don’t want to influence how this quest will develop you. When the questions occur, then definitely search and ask here and elsewhere. The thing is to study thoroughly and then, trusting in the Holy Spirit, come to a conclusion (one that you will be okay with changing later on if you find it needs modifying in light of further data/ideas/etc.)
God is able, and God is willing, and God desires to save ALL, so don’t despair.
The Calvinists are both wrong and right. God is all powerful, but His love is not limited.
The Arminians are both right and wrong. God is all loving, but His power is not limited.
The universalists agree with the Calvs AND the Arms. God is All powerful, and God loves ALL with a saving love. God can bring ALL of us home to His welcoming hearth and He can do it without violating our free will. If you want to know how, then read “Inescapable.” I could try, but I’d never be able to put it as well as Tom does in his book.
Be blessed, Cindy
Thank you Cindy- very good suggestions. I did read a book called Way of the Master by Ray Comfort which is a pretty hellish read, but I couldn’t get through it, I got scared and stopped reading it.
Well, read the good stuff first! Then when you feel strong enough, challenge yourself a bit as you feel you can take it. Taking on the opposition is a good thing once you’re strong. I probably shouldn’t have suggested that to you right away considering the distress the hellist doctrine causes you. I keep forgetting just HOW frightening it can be to people who truly believe it. Deep in my heart, I’m not sure I ever have believed it – or I would have been out sharing the “good” news a lot more than I was.
Until you do know the scriptures very well indeed, you might be better off to stick with comforting works (which I don’t have a problem in recommending, seeing I believe them to be fundamentally true). I wouldn’t want you to do something that would increase your fear. Fear is a bad thing – which is why we see all through scripture, “Fear Not!” Jesus came to deliver people from the fear of death that has held us captive all our lives. He came to set us free from sin (that is, sinning), which leads to death. THAT is the good news.
Wow – I somehow totally missed that the 2nd edition of Inescapable Love of God was out now, until reading this thread. Guess I know what to use my Christmas Amazon gift card for now.
I understand aspects of your confusion, 3SB. To be honest, I have a hard time trying to understand the essential questions you have so forgive me if my reply is off. 
On the issue of free-will, the question your posts seems to ask is this: Is God micro-managing our salvation or is He letting us determine if we want to be saved? Before I address this, I want to submit to you an evaluation of your posts, my experience, and some advice in hopes of encouraging you.
It is obvious to me, at least, that your humility in asking questions is related to your understanding of God’s part in salvation. I think your humility is actually an example of your coming-to-maturity rather than lack thereof. It was questions about my original denominational beliefs (from seventh-day adventism) that determined my theological direction. Once I thought that maybe I didn’t have it all together and that everything I know might be a ruse (except for basic Christian teachings) that my mind began to embrace theological concepts that fit better with the descriptions of God that I saw in the Bible. This is what I recommend as a start: Read the Bible and no one else’s interpretation of it and consider your past beliefs about the Bible to possibly be wrong in order to come to a greater understanding of God. As you read the Bible, focus on the main traits of God in the passages. This requires analysis and some level of referencing verses to each other.
I hope you find, as I did, some level of peace when all doctrine is put aside. The real question I have for you now is this: What do you want to believe about God? What does your view of God say about free-will?
After you have done all your research with the Bible without any commentaries which doesn’t necessarily have to be strenuous, answer these questions I have given to you. I asked those questions based on your own question.
As for all the links and references given, I don’t want to denigrate the work of anybody here but the best basis for your own theology is in reading the Bible. After you read the Bible, you can then use it to “divide soul and spirit” or to determine what is someone’s (or your) opinion from what they (or you) actually believe about God. It takes patience. I have faith that because of your humility and depth (in the midst of your self-admitted confusion) you will read through the Bible and slowly come to grasp the true doctrine of Christ. Praise God that He allows us to come closer to Him through His Word!
Now to give some direction on the free-will debate, not for the purpose of guiding your reading but rather your reasoning, I will say this: God is completely sovereign. God is Love. God is perfectly wise and just.
In my study, these basic principles of God are readily confirmed by His Word (and I hope you find this to be true as well). The work then rests in reading and forming a big picture of who God is and how that affects His plan for humanity. This is not a light task but one taken over a life-time that I continue in doing myself. The reason why I said it is not strenuous is because Jesus said that He would take all of our burdens if we will only ask Him. When we pray for understanding (and not doctrine or a denomination or religion to get answers from), then Jesus is just to give us what we require in order to be closer to Him. It is out of your relationship with Him that the Word begins to reveal itself a beautiful tapestry of God and how He personally wants to be “in” you. What you want to believe about God will be based on your relationship with Him. This is why I posed the questions to you earlier "What do you want to believe about God? What does your view of God say about free-will? ".
I hope any of what I said is encouraging or helpful. I know that I can be a bit wordy.
Thanks Nick, for your helpful answer. I do believe I should concentrate on bible study on my own versus just researching what I want to be true. I am not really sure what my point of the post was, just some ramblings of a confused person in search of God.
I don’t want to be making God in my image- I don’t want to say what He ought to do- cause he is God.
Just a little more background. I always thought I was safe with God, God had my back- even though I was messing up right and left and purposefully sinning, I didn’t see God as angry with me, just disappointed at times. I saw myself as GOOD and the really bad guys will get theirs someday. Until last year- I had a pretty radical change in everything in my life, especially spirtually where I felt condemned in my heart- like God’s wrath was upon me, and then I realized Jesus took the wrath away. I cried like a baby saying “I didn’t know you did that for me!” Never in my whole life had I ever known that in my heart- you hear it all the time, but it just sank in at that moment.
So, I was secure…and so in my mind- renewed.
But, what about everyone else I’d think, that didn’t have this radical experience like I did? They are screwed that means mom dad brothers sisters possibly my children you get the point…. and my heart was sick. Everyone around me was like dead man walking. I can’t handle that thought-I can’t imagine ET, don’t want to for a second. I guess I am just a wimp.
You might think you are a wimp but you’re not. I wish I could you that in person but I guess we’ll have to settle with the Bible which speaks to us both personally. Revelation 1:5-6 “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that LOVED us, and washed us from our sin in His own blood, and has made us KINGS and priests unto God and His Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”
Did you catch that? Because of God’s love and your acceptance of such, you are a king. Kings are not wimps. Remember that God is the one that gives us faith not the other way around. Since God makes you a king, you are not a wimp. When you act out of your personally given identity you act as courageous king does.
With your question about salvation of all mankind, consider this: Who is responsible for everyone’s salvation? Is it for everyone to decide based off of their free-will? Yes! Is God responsible for everyone’s salvation? Yes! How can I be so bold? Because when I consider that God is sovereign and Love, I realize that He does what He says He is going to do. Scripture clearly speaks of God’s desire for everyone to be saved. Don’t you think God gets what He wants? Is His justice naturally condemning of all and somehow Jesus is the solution for a few or is it that God’s plan meets His will and that Jesus is the answer to God’s seeming contradictions? How this resolves in the minutia is what the Law and Prophecies describe symbolically. My point is this: Consider God’s character in light of His actions. Would God do something that He doesn’t ultimately see for the better? No. Let’s praise God for his consistency in character and actions.
So as a general resolution: As a king in the eyes of God according to the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, you decree that those you love will be saved. As God works towards the salvation of everyone in His own time, you are the spiritual authority of those you know and love, to carry forward the gospel message to those you love so that they will be saved. The answer to fear of bad endings is Love. Carry forward the Truth of salvation as you have experienced it in your testimony and share it. The Word says that faith comes by hearing. But how can one hear if no one speaks? To eradicate what you think might be “wimpiness” is to speak and act the gospel. You will be so consumed with Love that you will have no time or energy to fear bad results. Act in faith. Go in peace.
Your brother in Christ,
Nick
I think I might have inspired myself as well. 