The Evangelical Universalist Forum

George MacDonald Believes Proper Self-Loathing (Repentance) Is Good

Theology Biblical Theology
#11

More from the humble Catholic monk Thomas A. Kempis in “The Imitation of Christ”. Next to the Bible “The Imitation of Christ” is the most read book by humanity. It has helped millions:

But if they are firmly grounded in humility and filled with charity; if they seek purely the worship of God - looking upon themselves as nothing and sincerely despising themselves; and if they desire to be despised by others, then they may really hope that they have advanced spiritually and that in the end they will have the reward of God for all their labor.

I have often told you, and I repeat it again: forsake yourself and renounce yourself, and you shall enjoy great interior peace.

#12

To go into more detail on how we empty the self (die to self) and find our sense of dignity and identity in being a child of God I recommend the contributing scholar to this forum Psychologist Richard Beck:

I think the self has to die. That’s what the bible seems to think. There must be a letting go, a surrendering, an emptying of the self. All efforts to define the self by acts of justification, the accumulation of evidence and data that the self is significant, have to be renounced. ~~ Richard Beck

As someone who has been diagnosed as schizoaffective and received tremendous healing I have to say that the psychologist Richard Beck is spot on here. Here’s the full article:

Self-Esteem as violence

experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2013/09/self-esteem-as-violence.html

The sense of dignity and value we are looking for comes when we are in Christ. As the psychologist Richard Beck states it:

As Thurman describes it, the eccentric identity - “the ground of personal dignity…a profound sense of personal worth” that comes to us when we receive our identities as children of God - immunizes the self from “churning fear”. Anxiety is replaced by a state of relaxation. And this relaxation - grounded in the fact that the “individual now feels that he counts, that he belongs” - inoculates the ego from fear. This relaxation or peace comes from the “awareness of being a child of God,” which stabilizes the ego and "results in a new courage, fearlessness, and power.

Self inflation causes you to be violent. When ego is turned inward then you become violent against yourself. All sin stems from ego. The solution is to deflate ego. From humility all forms of virtue spring and flourish. Those with low self-esteem paradoxically feel that way because of an intense desire to be great.

#13

Who is arguing against that? But the fact is that neither Kempis nor George MacDonald advocate self-hatred. Indeed Kempis states in your quote of him that a person who recognizes his lack “should not be grieved or depressed” whereas, a person who hates himself is grieved and depressed.

#14

George MacDonld says self loathing is good:

Self-loathing is not sorrow. Yet it is good, for it marks a step in the way home, and in the father’s arms the prodigal forgets the self he abominates.”
― George MacDonald, Lilith

Here’s another from Gmac:

Our neighbor is our refuge; self is our demon-foe ~~ George MacDonald

Kempis explicitly teaches a despising of self in “The Imitation of Christ”. Next to the Bible “The Imitation of Christ” is the most read book by humanity. It has helped millions:

But if they are firmly grounded in humility and filled with charity; if they seek purely the worship of God - looking upon themselves as nothing and sincerely despising themselves; and if they desire to be despised by others, then they may really hope that they have advanced spiritually and that in the end they will have the reward of God for all their labor.

I have often told you, and I repeat it again: forsake yourself and renounce yourself, and you shall enjoy great interior peace

So does righteous Job:

Then Job replied to the Lord:

“I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.

“You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.’

My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.

> Therefore I despise myself
> and repent in dust and ashes.

It’s a proper self-loathing that leads to repentance. Not all self-loathing. Just as the Ph.D. in psychology describes here in “Psychology Today”. Feeling bad about yourself can lead you to change.

Quote from the article:

In other words, self-hatred is psychologically damaging but it can also make you more motivated to change.

Properly used hate can be good. From “Psychologist World”:

Hate by itself is the emotional dynamic of the ability to sustain long periods of concentration and meditation. It does not require an object to focus on (it mirrors pure love in this respect) ; it is a general-purpose tool for cutting positive attachments, especially in relationships (for example, pride in hate mode rejects another person, whereas hate by itself rejects any pleasant attachment to the other person). Hate produces clear thinking and strengthens a person’s will power. It supports the desire for solitude. It cools the mind and may easily be mistaken for a mild sense of peace. It is likely to be the prevailing mood when a meditator claims that they are no longer acting from a sense of ego. The skilful way of using hate is to clear the mind of redundant attachments and desires. https://www.psychologistworld.com/emotion/types-hate

#15

Holly Tree, I am beginning to think that what seems to be disagreement between us is actually a different understanding of the word “self.” I have a pdf of Kempis’ writing “The Imitation of Christ.” I did a search for every instance of the word “self.” In nearly every case, he refers to “selfishness” that inner attitude that seeks to maximize self-interest and pleasure. However in one instance, he uses the word “self” in the way that I was using it in opposing “self-hate.” In that one instance, he calls it his “inner self.” He wrote, “Then shall all my inner self be glad when my soul is perfectly united with God.”
Would you agree that we should not hate our “inner self”? If we did, we would become ineffective, and not even attempt to serve God.

In most cases, Kempis uses “self” to denote that selfish part of us that seeks to please itself rather than God. I fully agree that that “self” should be hated and eliminated. Here is what I found in Kempis about that self and all of which I fully agree with:

  1. Oppose self-love.
  2. Uphold self-denial
  3. Those who love that self are those who seek their own interests.
  4. We must get free from self-seeking
  5. We must renounce self— give up self-will
  6. Self-glory is a plague.
  7. We must oppose self-interest
  8. We need to die to self.
  9. There is too much self-love.
  10. Oppose self-satisfaction, self-exaltation, self-reliance
  11. We should a) renounce self b) have contempt for self c) despise self d) conquer self
  12. We need to a) gain victories over self b) resign self to the will of god c) shrink from self-esteem
#16

I agree. We find our true inner self “new self” by turning outward not inward. We despise the demon self and turn away from it towards God. This is repentance. We turn our focused attention off of self and on to God and others. When we lose our selves we find ourselves. Everything balances out. We love God above all else and our neighbor as our self. (true self). This is when we find a proper self esteem. Beholding the glory of Christ we are being transformed into His image from glory to glory. We find our inner self but this isn’t our focus. God is. We are transformed when we concentrate our focus and attention on Christ. Here’s how C.S. Lewis put it:

There are no real personalities anywhere else. Until you have given up your self to Him you will not have a real self. Sameness is to be found most among the most “natural” men, not among those who surrender to Christ. How monotonously alike all the great tyrants and conquerors have been: how gloriously different are the saints. ~~ C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, page 226

Here Lewis captures the paradox of self-forgetfulness. By turning our focus outwards towards Christ we become our truest selves. We die to self and are resurrected. God wants us to become the creations he intended all along. Valuable, dignified, good, reflections of Christ. We love (take care of) our true self.

#17

A good book on losing yourself to find yourself:

#18

Just ordered Lilith by George MacDonald. GMac is solid. A true Christian

#19

For those following this thread is a continuation of this one:

#20

An article from “Psychology Today” showing that those with high self esteem (narcissists) are violent. It’s a myth that violent and aggressive people have low self esteem:

quote from the article:

It is important to base beliefs on scientific evidence rather than intuition, common sense, gut feelings, hunches, instincts, intuitions, and premonitions, which can often lead us astray. Although many people believe that aggressive and violent people have low self-esteem, they do not. Aggressive people tend to be narcissists. Narcissists think they are special people who deserve special treatment. When they don’t get the respect they think they are entitled to, narcissists lash out at others in an aggressive manner.

#21

From the psychiatrist David D. Burns, M.D. He’s a clinical psychiatrist sold over a million copies of books and has lectured for general audiences and mental health professionals throughout the country as well as a frequent guest on national radio and television programs. He’s received numerous awards including Distinguished Contribution to Psychology Through the Media Award from the Association of Applied and Preventive Psychology. A magna cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa graduate of Amherst college, Dr. Burns received his medical degree from Stanford University School of Medicine.

A person can have too much self-esteem! A person with healthy self-esteem also respects and likes others. In contrast, a person with excessive self-esteem is arrogant and self-centered and disrespectful of others. In it’s most extreme form, excessive self-esteem is known as narcissistic personality disorder. People with this disorder have fantasies of grandeur and an inflated sense of self esteem. They are insensitive to the needs and feelings of others and exploit other people for their own purposes. When they are criticized or confronted, they react with rage or with feelings of shame. They have difficulties forming close, trusting, equal relationships with others. ~~ 10 Days To Self-esteem page 189

There’s also the criticisms of the psychologists who founded Acceptance Commitment Therapy. The psychologist and professor of psychology at the University of Mississippi from “The Wisdom To Know the Difference” under the section called “The Self-Esteem Myth”

The myth says that low self-esteem lies at the core of many individual and societal problems…During the last ten years, there has been a major effort by scientists to examine whether this story about the role of self-esteem is true. As it turns out, the answer is no. High self-esteem is related to aggressiveness, bullying, narcissism, egotism, prejudice, and high risk behaviors.

#22

I have opposed self-esteem for many years. As a school teacher I was raked over the coals for it by the majority of my fellow teachers—but I held to my position. Self-esteem in schools produces a bunch of arrogant little rats. Rather I believe in love and humility.

However, I strongly oppose self-hate. That is just as destructive as self-love only with different results.

#23

When I have a proper self-loathing my self-esteem lowers. When this happens it makes me more creative as I seek meaning in pain, it makes me more respectful as I esteem others as better than myself, it makes me more gentle because when I’m weak then I’m strong, it makes me more empathetic because I’ve suffered therefore I know, and it makes me a good listener because I would rather listen to others. It makes me more contemplative. Self loathing has given me gifts that I can keep.

http://www.joshgrovercounseling.com/blog/2016/12/22/toxic-shame-vs-healthy-shame

Healthy Shame

On the other hand, there is such a thing as healthy shame. Healthy shame lets us know that we have limits. We are not God. We have permission to make mistakes and be a human being. The freedom to make a mistake produces creativity, joy, hope and love! Peace and rest become real. We begin to experience self acceptance.

#24

From the chapter “Shame Deficiency”

People who are shame deficient are emotionally immature. Something in their development has gone wrong. They are unable to find their proper place in the universe because the only place they know is center stage. They are disconnected without even knowing it. To put it simply, they need more shame in their lives…The message they tell the world is this: “I am the most important person ever born. You must give me all your love, time, and appreciation.” People who are shame deficient often believe they deserve special treatment just because they exist. They want to be placed on a pedestal where they can be worshipped and adored. They simply think it is obvious that they are better than anyone else. They are egotistical to the point of having no room to care about others.

Dr. Ronald T. Potter-Efron is a clinical psychotherapist. He has a M.S.W from the University of Michigan and a Ph.D. in sociology from Purdue University. A former university professor, he specializes in the treatment of addictive disorders and anger and resentment counseling. He also is active in training professional counselors. He taught at an experimental college for eight years, and has trained in gestalt therapy techniques. Ronald is the author of Shame, Guilt and Alcoholism: Treatment Issues in Clinical Practice

#25

Quote from the book:

The weird thing about self-esteem is how little connection it bears to reality. Many burglars and murderers feel great about themselves. Yet many upstanding citizens whom a jury of sages would declare kind, wonderful, and worthy hate themselves. ~~ Anneli Rufus

#26

In Unspoken Sermons “Self Denial” MacDonald is speaking to his self saying he’s disgusted:

If I were to mind what you say, I should soon be sick of you; even now I am ever and anon disgusted with your paltry, mean face, which I meet at every turn. No! let me have the company of the Perfect One, not of you! of my elder brother, the Living One! I will not make a friend of the mere shadow of my own being! Good-bye, Self! I deny you, and will do my best every day to leave you behind me.

MacDonald above is speaking to self saying he’s disgusted with it and will leave it behind. Again, below is MacDonald contrasting neighbor with self calling self the “demon foe”

Our neighbor is our refuge; self is our demon-foe

It’s the demon foe that is evil. The self is the demon foe. The self is evil. This is what MacDonald says he is leaving behind and denying. Here’s MacDonald on repentance:

What is repentance? Turning your back upon the evil thing; pressing on to lay hold of that for which Christ laid hold upon you. To repent is to think better of it, to turn away from the evil. ~~ The Gospel in George MacDonald, Selections from his Novels, Fairy Tales, and Spiritual Writings.

Repentance is a change of mind. A turning from the evil self to Christ. Our focus turns towards Christ. Beholding the glory of the Lord we are transformed into His image from glory to glory. Here’s George MacDonald in Lilith:

“Those are not the tears of repentance!.. Self-loathing is not sorrow. Yet it is good, for it marks a step in the way home, and in the father’s arms the prodigal forgets the self he abominates.”

Just as MacDonald turned with loathing from the evil God of Calvinism, he turns with loathing of the demon self. He says is Self-Denial that he’s disgusted with his self and calls the self the demon foe. When MacDonald turns with loathing from evil he’s repenting. When we repent we have a change of mind as we turn from our demon self to Christ. I’m like George MacDonald. When I hate something I turn from it. He turned with loathing from the God of Jonathan Edwards. He hated what he considered evil. But he didn’t get violent and kill anyone. Well, a proper self hatred is the same. It’s a turning from yourself to God. This is repentance. Repentance is a turning from sin to Christ. It’s a change of mind, The focus is off of self and on Christ. This balances things out where you love God above all and others as yourself. (true self). This is a proper self esteem. A proper despising of self leads to repentance. It’s in Job 42. It’s after God questions Job. MacDonald is in agreement with Righteous Job

Then Job replied to the Lord:

“I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.
“You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.’
My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.
Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes.

#27

Not many of us, alas, are given the experience of seeing God in that immediacy. No doubt, as CSL said in your quote, IN HIS PRESENCE we might very well find some things - not all things for crying out loud - loathsome about ourselves. But we are not in His presence in THAT way - we have to make do with mediated experience which is not the same thing.
My concern is a false loathing - one brought about by false guilt, or mixed-up upbringing and such - in other words, an illusory loathing - whereas the real thing must come in a bright light outside ourselves - not just a guess based on someone else’s words.
IOW - if there is a ‘should’ in loathing ourselves - it can only be real in His presence. Which I personally do not live in experientially.

#28

I hated myself with an improper hatred most of my life. It produced shame spirals which lead to psychoses and paranoia. Just got me a copy of this from the psychiatrist Peter Breggin. It agrees with the conclusions I’ve come to based on my experience with improper self hatred that causes shame spirals causing my psychoses.

When emotionally wounded people withdraw into themselves and into those intensely personal, fragmented, nightmarish worlds we call “schizophrenia,” “mania”, or “psychoses”, they are usually suffering from overwhelming shame reactions. Unbearably burned by inflictions of shame, as described in chapter 10, they no longer dare to be with people. By telling these distressed people they have “biochemical imbalances,” “genetic disorders,” psychiatry not only misleads them, it worsens their stigmatization, humiliation, and feelings of exclusion. They are not suffering from biochemical imbalances; they are suffering from unbearable humiliation. As a psychiatrist and therapist, some of my most poignant, moving experiences have involved sharing the feelings of people who are undergoing overwhelming psychotic experiences with hallucinations and delusions. When these individuals have trusted me enough to allow me into their emotional world, what they have shared with me is the experience of drowning in shame. I have sat with them while their faces physically swelled as if bursting and turned blood red with humiliation. page 172

Being in the grip of shame is a horrific state, filled with conflicting emotions of extreme pride and humiliation. When we compensate for extreme shame by acting superior, grandiose, and invulnerable like a superhero, we become psychiatrically diagnosed as manic and bipolar. We are really trying to make up for how insignificant and powerless we feel. If we express our feelings of suspicion and distrust others will label or diagnose us paranoid. We are really trying to figure out what is going on that makes us feel so intimidated. Young people who become overwhelmed by extreme humiliation end up diagnosed schizophrenic because they withdraw deeply into themselves and begin to live in a world so private that it becomes a walking nightmare. They are really trying to escape from a world that has imposed abject humiliation upon them. page 171

A proper self loathing is a turning away from evil self. It’s repentance. Turning towards Christ. The self hatred I’m speaking of is passive. When I say proper self hatred I’m speaking more along the lines of disdain and contempt. It’s a turning your back on the evil self and letting it die. It’s a turning away and getting your attention off of self. The way we do this is by letting go and doing activities that get the attention flowing away from self. Things that we lose ourselves in in the present moment and get into what psychologist call flow. Athletes call it being in the zone. It’s the ultimate in focus and concentration. Things like

Going for a walk noticing the scenery and environment

Exercise

Listen to music

Read

Write, blog

Play games like solitare

Work

Color

Worship and praise God

Watch a wholesome or educational T.V. show

A hobby that focuses your attention like painting, putting models together. Anything that gets the attention focused and flowing outside of self.

We find our true inner self “new self” by turning outward not inward. We despise the demon self and turn away from it towards God. This is repentance. We turn our focused attention off of self and on to God and others. When we lose our selves we find ourselves. Everything balances out. We love God above all else and our neighbor as our self. (true self). This is when we find a proper self esteem. Beholding the glory of Christ we are being transformed into His image from glory to glory. We find our inner self but this isn’t our focus. God is. We are transformed when we concentrate our focus and attention on Christ. Here’s how C.S. Lewis put it:

There are no real personalities anywhere else. Until you have given up your self to Him you will not have a real self. Sameness is to be found most among the most “natural” men, not among those who surrender to Christ. How monotonously alike all the great tyrants and conquerors have been: how gloriously different are the saints. ~~ C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, page 226

Here Lewis captures the paradox of self-forgetfulness. By turning our focus outwards towards Christ we become our truest selves. We die to self and are resurrected. God wants us to become the creations he intended all along. Valuable, dignified, good, reflections of Christ. We love (take care of) our true self.

Evil is non-existence (nothing). We simply forget about ourselves turning our focus on God and others. As C.S. Lewis puts it:

In God you come up against something which is in every respect immeasurably superior to yourself. Unless you know God as that - and, therefore, know yourself as nothing in comparison - you do not know God at all ~~ Mere Christianity, page 124

The real test of being in the presence of God is, that you either forget about yourself all together or see yourself as a small, dirty object. It is better to forget about yourself altogether.
~~ C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, page 125

#29

That’s pretty well the way I see it too, Dave.

#30

My experience is the same as Jobs in a turning from self to God. Repentance