The Evangelical Universalist Forum

George MacDonald vs Grace

Practices Christian Living
#21

Thank you Jason for your replies. I’m embarrassed because you put so much into it and my response will be monosyllabic by comparison.

I will never be of the disposition required for salvation; I don’t have the strength or inclination at this point. I have suffered many, many years under the weight of hell-fear, including five years fearing I had committed the “unpardonable sin”. So GM’s universalism was a relief to me. But as I read further, I became utterly discouraged. Still, he’s infinitely better than the traditional teaching. But as a Bad Person, I just don’t have whatever it takes to walk the path he says we must walk. To be honest, I don’t even have the desire at this point.

I have to stop here, I’m at work.

#22

Andre,

I’ve read through all the responses, and felt I had nothing more to say, but I do resonate with your cry “I don’t even want to.” At one point, I felt just the same way. I didn’t even want to want God. I was disappointed with Him for not being who I thought He was or doing the sorts of things I had been told He could be expected to do.

I realize that’s not quite the same situation that you describe, but I believe that the answer is very similar. After some time, I began to feel sad that I had walked away from God. (That was Him calling me, of course.) I had no desire to love Him, but I knew something was missing. It took me a while – struggling with this – but eventually I began to ask Him to cause me to at least WANT to desire Him.

I remember asking Him this most often while driving out or driving home. We live in the hills and it’s a lovely drive winter or summer, and He was calling me by the beauty around me, I think. It took a long time; several months. My desire for a response from Him began to grow to the point that this desire BECAME the response. He did answer me – probably right away – but I had to grow into that answer.

You would not have posted this thread if the idea of punishment wasn’t troubling you. You desire joy and not pain, and that’s a start. But your sin BRINGS pain just as planting a thistle seed brings a thistle plant. You cannot plant a thistle and hope for a chrysanthemum. If you must plant lawlessness of whatever species, you will reap just that. It will be your reward and your punishment, and it will cure you of your unrighteous sowing.

Let me give an example. Let’s say that you have a habit of stealing from your employer. Perhaps you steal office supplies or tools or time. At first you feel a little guilty, but you teach yourself not to. You don’t want to stop, not so much because of the gain, but perhaps just because it’s a habit. You’re in bondage to this habit. Father keeps nudging you, which makes you feel guilty, but you still don’t stop. What is He to do? He has forgiven you already, but He cannot allow you to remain a thief, because this would make you unable to share in the inheritance of the saints in the light.

He must somehow cure you of your obsession, and how to do it? This would depend on who you are. Perhaps He’ll allow you to be caught, exposed and shamed for your behavior. Your boss knows and you feel terrible, and perhaps your job is even in danger. That is a painful consequence and might nudge you toward true repentance – particularly the shame of it might nudge you in that direction. But if it doesn’t, you might need even more painful consequences to repel you from your habit of thievery.

Now here is the part I think you do not like. If Father does not succeed in turning you from your folly in this life, He will not forget about it in the age to come. He will continue to work on you to cure you. He doesn’t wave His magic wand and make it all better because that is not the way He builds magnificent sons and spectacular daughters. He continues to work you through the process until not only do you cease to commit this sin, but you also cease to be the sort of person who would ever consider committing such a sin. You become a person who not only detests the sin, but who is easily capable of NOT doing it.

To me, this scenario (which I believe to be scriptural) is a far greater deterrent to sin in the here and now, since we know that Father WILL deal with the sin. If we refuse to relinquish it, at some point it will be exposed and we will be shamed. We will suffer the natural consequences of that sin (we will not continue to “get away with it”). He will make the sweetness of that sin oh so bitter and we will finally renounce it not only for its fruits, but also because the sin itself has become a thing of horror to us.

I don’t know about you, but I don’t want ANYONE knowing about my secret sins. Knowing this has been the beginning of my being freed from a number of such things since my coming to EUR. Many think that we who believe in the ultimate reconciliation of all wink at sin. Not so, for we see that the sin must be dealt with whether in this age or the ages to come, and have (I believe) a far greater motivation to shun sin than those who believe Father will just wave His magic wand and we will be perfected with no need for us to submit to Him.

This view is, imo, far more harmful to the concept of free will than a whole bucketload of universalists saying that in the end, all will be saved, no matter how they may feel about that idea on the day they die. Father will continue to work to bring them around, and He WILL bring them around – but with (not aside from) their cooperation.

So yes, my brother, you do need to renounce your sins. Father knows you are completely unable to do this on your own, but He will help you as you deny the flesh (the old man – not speaking here of the physical body), disown it, and relinquish its hold on you. You are free, and whom the Son sets free SHALL be free indeed. You are already set free, but you SHALL BE free as you come out from the yoke of bondage by His power. It will happen. It will happen faster, the sooner you decide to trust Him and cooperate.

Love in Jesus, Cindy

#23

@Andre
My apologies to you. You stumbled into the crosshairs of my discontent and I rudely and stupidly pulled the trigger. I pray you will one day find as much hope in MacDonald as I have over the years.

@Matt
If I had a heart that was one tenth as loving and tender as yours, I’d be a happy man. I can assure you that whatever faults you have – and as a fellow human being, I’m sure you have some – they pale into insignificance beside mine. God bless you, sir.

@Jason
You’re right, sir. Sorry.

#24

Johnny,

I thought you said some good and important things in other regards there, too, for what it’s worth. :slight_smile: (I reffed you several times in my own reply.)

#25

Andre,

I expect most of us (I know I do–so did MacDonald, although he wrote ideally about what was better) have at least some sins that we just can’t seem to shake yet, even with God’s help.

When I feel despair about that, I find that the most important things to remember (in roughly increasing order of importance) are:

1.) I do reject the sins. (I’d be in much worse shape if I didn’t even recognize them, much worse again if I did but got indignant about having to give them up.)

2.) I trust God to free me from them completely eventually, and not to ever give up on me even though I lapse more often on those sins than with others. (This trust can be admittedly hard to do.)

3.) God is faithful even when I’m being unfaithful, and even when I have emotional doubts about how God could care to save me from my sins.

I also find it’s important to keep in mind that I ought to accept God’s punishment, even if that seems scary.

And even if I have incidental pain in my life (not seeming to be directly a punishment for some sin of mine), however great (and I have suffered pain every waking hour of every day for many years now), I can choose to pour that fire on my sin and so make a good practical use of it. In doing so, I find I can bear the pain much more easily, and I find I am less inclined to sin there for a while. I accept the pain, even if it seems more incidental than punishment, as a gift and resource providentially provided by God for me to make good use of in this way. And then obviously moreso again if it seems to me that the suffering is actually intended directly as punishment for my sin!

Most importantly, though, I remember:

4.) that God Himself voluntarily shares my suffering with me, whether I’m a (more or less) innocent victim, or whether I’m being punished by God.

Anyway, as Johnny very well advised, if you’re having trouble dealing with many large sins, I also recommend (like Johnny and MacD) that you look around for something smaller to work on and go do that. It isn’t a question of earning God’s forgiveness of the larger sins that way. It’s a question of practically practicing working with God in being fair to other people. We ought to be doing that anyway, and I myself have found this to be very helpful: when I focus on truly loving other people even a little, acting toward fulfilling fair-togetherness with them, I have an easier time resisting larger messy sins in my life as well.

#26

God bless you too, Johnny :slight_smile:

Appreciate the kind words bro, but I don’t think I’m any better than you are, that and you’re not nearly as bad as you may think, my friend :wink:

And hey, the fact that you are apologizing and seeking to humble yourself… doesn’t that say something. :wink:

Grace and peace to you, and chin up! :slight_smile:

Matt

#27

I found the following;

rabbitroom.com/2008/08/donal … -of-faith/

When I said in my op that I loved MacDonald, I was sincere. After years of the petty, small, touchy god of traditional Christianity, GM’s picture of God was stunning. Its like I knew in my heart that this was true, in fact I think I knew it as a child when I thought something was way off about the god I was presented by traditional Christianity.

However, its my nature as a very pessimistic person to zero in on things that to me are condemning. This is how I can claim to love GM and yet be put off by some of what he says.

I was thinking tonight at work that maybe its knowing the character of God that frees a person from sin, not by giving him power or strength, but just by knowing God himself as He is. Its my opinion that “sin” comes from a desperateness, a grasping at life because one thinks that this world, with its dead ends and limitations is all there is. The awareness of our finitude makes us feel we have to grab all the life we can, no matter what we have to do or who we have to step over. Knowing the Infinite God and his character releases one to some degree from that desperateness. Having said that, it still looks like to me that GM puts the cart before the horse. And yet, the picture he paints of God is so encouraging that one is more inclined to want to obey God. But if I read admonishments to obey without the awareness of God’s love and goodness, its like a hammer upside the head.

Just my dumb thoughts tonight.

#28

And wonderful and profound thoughts they are, Andre. I absolutely agree with you that it is spending time with Father, getting to know Him, that changes us. Nothing works like being in His presence.

Yet, there is a place for obedience, too. And when you have spent time in His chambers, you find that (while you still must choose to obey), you CAN choose to obey. I think that’s at least part of what MacD is saying in his writings. Jesus often commanded people to do things they clearly could not do. “Take up your bed and go home.” “Go present yourselves to the priests and offer the sacrifice Moses commanded for your cleansing.” “Stretch forth your hand.” “Woman, be loosed from your infirmity.” “Little girl, I say to you, arise!” “Lazarus! Come forth!” And let’s not forget . . . “Neither do I condemn you. Go, and sin no more.”

Keep meditating on Him and hearing and obeying His words, and you will be truly free.

#29

When I began my career (aeons ago), my boss was inspiring, brilliant at his job, full of energy and genuinely interested in me. I was in awe, and willingly worked my butt off to please him. My old dad said much the same of his time in the army in WW2. Many officers were loathed for their arrogance and incompetence, but some were so respected that ordinary men would willingly, even joyfully, follow them to hell and back.

There’s a parable in here somewhere. Christ is the great King. When we realize how great he actually is, it will make it very much easier to follow. Until that happy day, we must struggle along in the fog as best we can.

#30

Hi Andre

I just wanted to offer you an unequivocal public apology for being so rude, uncharitable and unhelpful in my responses to your original posts on this thread.

It’s no excuse whatsoever, but my head isn’t in a great place at the moment - and somewhat ironically that is in part because of self-disgust and anger at my own sinfulness and repeated failures to overcome my own besetting sins, to live up to the standards I profess to believe, ie to the commandments of Christ. In truth we probably have quite a lot in common. My heart was deeply moved when I read this in your subsequent post (my emphases):

Andre, if it’s any consolation or help at all, I too went through a prolonged period of fear - panic would probably be a better word - about having committed the unforgivable sin. And actually it was only reading MacDonald’s Unspoken Sermon *It Shall Not Be Forgiven *that I was gradually able to conquer that fear. (This was back in my Arminian days, before I became an Evangelical Universalist, so I truly believed it was possible to damn oneself. So bad was my fear, in fact, that for a long time after I stumbled across it on the internet, I couldn’t bring myself to read MacDonald’s Sermon, in case it confirmed that I had indeed committed the Unpardonable Sin!)

I also often feel that I’m a ‘Bad Person’ who doesn’t have what it takes to do the right thing, and indeed lacks the desire to do so sometimes. So you are not alone there, either. In the past I have ascribed these feelings to my own deliberate sinfulness, or to the fact that I’m deluding myself about God’s very existence.

But Andre - and this (apart from the apology, obviously) is the most important thing I wanted to say to you - it has been reading MacDonald, and his wonderful evocation of the true loving, forgiving heart of God, that has helped me escape from this situation. For what it’s worth, I now believe that there is no such thing as a truly ‘bad person’ - only human beings who are mired in sin, sometimes almost overwhelmingly - but never irredeemably - so.

When I read your original post I unthinkingly reacted with a knee-jerk reaction, failing to see the depth of your own pain behind the honesty of your post, and instead seeing only a criticism of the writer who pretty much above all others has been a source of such comfort and help to me. I ask your forgiveness for that.

But whatever, please don’t give up on MacDonald.

With best wishes

Johnny

#31

Fair enough–MacD can be very hardnosed in how he goes about things. http://www.wargamer.com/forums/smiley/paladin.gif

I don’t think he’s technically putting the cart before the horse, but I can at least sympathize with how it looks that way sometimes. He’s working from a position where he himself is so convinced of God’s persistent love for everyone that I think he sometimes didn’t pay sufficient attention to how people having trouble with that in various ways could be frightened or upset or discouraged by how hard he’s coming down at the moment. In his own mind there were obvious connections with what he was saying over here and with what he was saying over there; so obvious that it simply doesn’t occur to him that he should spell them out. On paper, consequently, the connections take more work to suss out, and so by proportion can be easily missed.

I hope that helps you feel better about it anyway. :slight_smile:

#32

Johnny,

http://www.wargamer.com/forums/smiley/toppieplus.gif

(I have no idea what “toppie” means, so I’m just going to pretend it means something highly approving. :mrgreen: If anyone knows different, let me know pronto! :laughing:)

#33

Everything is cool on my end, Johnny. Thank you for the encouragement. And I can see why you got defensive about GM; he is your friend and teacher, the one who showed you the way out.

#34

Good points, all. While there are those things GM says that I find somewhat discouraging, there are other things that are encouraging (an understatement). Last night I read a passage from one of his novels where one character tells another, “If you knew him [God] you would love him.” There’s a lot in that statement right there, since to love God implies obedience as a fruit. So right there is a statement of grace.

#35

Thank you for that!

#36

Good analogy, thanks.

#37

I’ll second that.

#38

I found this interesting article.

evangelartists.com/MacDonald … ce_pg1.htm

Interesting read.

#39

I agree on the metaphysics involved (I talk about this notion occasionally in Sword to the Heart starting around Section Three); but of course I would add (as would MacD) that God also eternally chooses to help us with that. :slight_smile:

#40

This is why we say that when Jesus calls a man, He bids him to come and die. The burden is not light, brother, because you are trying to carry the wrong burden. Your burden is to deny your old self. The burden of obedience can only be carried by Jesus, and He will do that if you can let go of it. And even as you are carrying that burden of denying self . . . He will be carrying you.

But you do what you have to do, and He will speak to you in His own way. He won’t let up until He brings you home, though – just so you know. :wink: You will be the amazing son that Father has always intended you to be, and it will be good in the end.

Stick around, though. You’re not a pain at all, nor is anyone who has honest questions and is honestly seeking the truth. Trolls are a pain, yes – but you are no troll, and you are welcome here.

Love and blessings,
Cindy