The Evangelical Universalist Forum

George MacDonald vs Grace

Ok, at the risk of looking totally foolish, I will stay. But this GM thing has me all depressed and twisted. I think this is so because I see so much life and hope in his teaching, but he yanks the football away with his call for obedience.

I still think he is wrong about that. He’s a better man than me for sure, but I think he’s wrong.

I’m not good at writing or any communications for that matter, so I would rather just share a few thoughts on this topic that occurred to me today.

  1. Paul said, the “power of sin is the law”. It the commands and the demands that stir up resistance in “the flesh”. The only way Paul gives to combat this is to “walk in the spirit” which I understand to mean live in the reality of one’s complete acceptance with God. With Paul its either/or; you are either walking in the flesh (human wisdom and self-will) or walking in the spirit (living in the awareness of grace). Maybe I understand him wrongly, but GM seems to be saying that one should use one’s own flesh-power to resist sin, that is, to “obey”. But is that even possible in light of what Paul teaches, that the power of sin is the law?

2)Doesn’t grace itself free you from sin, from obsessions and compulsions? Doesn’t grace, which is acceptance and fellowship with God replace any pleasure from sin with something far better? I can remember a few times in my life where I think I did experience grace; it broke through and flooded my being. It was 20 years ago and I was feeling condemned over inability to “be good” and resist certain temptations. The more condemned I felt the more I became fearful and angry at God. I was caught in a vicious cycle until I felt utterly damned. It was at that moment a line from Psalm 145 popped in my head, “the Lord is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love”. I was flooded with peace; plus, the things I was feeling guilty about moments before, the temptations I was struggling with was no longer a problem. Its not that I got power to resist; it was like I had something better. I have had this experience a couple more times since then and it convinced me that “sin” isn’t overcome by willpower but by grace-power. Its paradoxical; God doesn’t condemn one for sinning and awareness of that frees one from even the desire to sin. To me it seems, GM undercuts that truth with his exhortations for obedience.

3)Is it possible that the real problem with humanity is not “sin” but rather fear? John MacMurray, a Scottish philosopher and Quaker thought so; I have read his lecture “To Save From Fear” and I tend to agree with him. Jesus’s mission is to restore trust in life itself, in God. I think its fear of our finitude that leads to sin; we end up desparately trying to grab as much life as we can. Knowing ourselves as connected to, accepted by and alive in God frees us from our finitude.

Now I say all the above with the admission that my life is pretty much a sin-fest. I live like an animal. Just thought I should be honest here.

Hi, Andre

You know, you did a good job of explaining yourself here. I don’t completely understand, but then I don’t completely understand anything any more. I used to, but I was younger then. :laughing:

I think you should lean on the everlasting arms of grace and just see where Father takes you. I’ll bet He will take you out of sin at some point, but as you’re ready and as you’re able and it will be as natural as a newborn learning how to see. Did you know babies have to learn how to see? Apparently they start out seeing everything upside-down and out of focus, but the transition takes place with no effort on their part. Probably they don’t even know it or notice as it happens. Pretty good analogy, huh? I was just trying to come up with a non-cliche and look what Father showed me!

You’re going to be all right, Brother. Keep seeking and you will most definitely find. I think part of getting to know our Father is the search we make and our efforts to find Him. That’s also part of the process of becoming free.

Blessings, Cindy

You can do one of two things, as far as I can see. Like the prodigal son, you can wait until sheer pain forces you to change. Or you can find some Christians who are serious about leaving their old lives behind and join them in their quest. It’s certainly not something to attempt on your own.

Great avatar, btw. :slight_smile:

It depends on what one means by “condemn”: God doesn’t condemn the person in the way that He condemns the sin. God isn’t going to be satisfied with less than a morally healthy person, precisely because God loves persons (even when we aren’t morally healthy yet).

And even in regard to condemnation of sin, God passes by everything He can, at all levels. The sinner is only condemned for the sin that the sinner refuses to come out of.

But the condemnation isn’t hopeless: it’s only a resolution and a determination by God to clean the person and lead him to being a fully righteous man instead.

That’s super-excessively hopeful!–but there is no hope for being always allowed to go on sinning.

When I feel weighed down by my own persistent sins (which by the way I strongly suspect distract me from other persistent sins of mine that I am currently much more attached to!), I remember that even when I cannot muster the intention or even the mere desire to be free from my sins, God is still faithful (yet not as a result of anything I have done to earn such faithfulness) and will not give up on having me be a fully and freely righteous man.

MacD talks a lot about all that.

And while he doesn’t teach that we have to be righteously obedient first before God will act to save us from our unrighteousness, he does insist that righteous obedience to (or more accurately with) Righteousness Himself is the goal of our salvation from sin per se. That’s just logically valid.

So where we see opportunity to do so, we had better at least try to cooperate so far as we are currently able. If that’s currently only a little bit, then at least cooperate with that. Walk according to as much of the light as we can see, looking for more light thereby. Don’t despair of the Light despairing and failing ultimately with us; but don’t avoid looking for more light and trying to walk by it either. Irresponsibility may not be finally fatal (by God’s grace, thank God); but it’s still irresponsible.

So long as we refuse to grow up, God will lead us and help us to grow up. That’s God’s promise. Also God’s threat, if we want to look at it that way; but we would do better to look at the positive promise of intention. It’s only a threat, in the end, to our sin and to our sinning!–not to us personally. God loves the person, even when the person is sinning; it is the sin that God hates, and won’t rest until it is annihilated (one way or another).

edit;

I’m not going to argue about this anymore, I still like GM, but his teachings hurt me.

Thanks for the remark about my avatar; I like house music, chill, ambient, etc., hence the pic.

Perhaps it will help to point this out . . .

The essence of the law is love. Whoever loves has kept the law. If you do unloving things – things that cause harm to others and that fail to love them, then you are breaking the law. If you are ultimately #1 and no one else matters as much as or more than you, and you’re okay with that, then you have a long, hard journey ahead. The yoke of self-love is indeed heavy, but that is not the yoke of Jesus.

A person who honestly cares for no one but him/herself is by default going to be a miserable person. Somehow you don’t come across as that sort of person.

The commands of the law (even some of the odd OT ones) originate from love. “Keep yourself from sexual immorality” protects those with whom you might otherwise practice sexual immorality from emotional, physical, and spiritual harm. It protects you from the same. It protects your heart. Maybe that’s hard to see at the moment, though. How about a more obvious example . . .

Let’s take gossip. Gossip is unquestionably a sin, because it hurts people – it does them genuine harm. Many people gossip even about people they like. They may not realize the harm they’re doing. So the Spirit convicts you (brings to your attention) that something you said about a friend would be hurtful to your friend if he were to find out. You imagine the scene if your friend were to discover what you’ve said – how miserable you would feel, knowing how you’ve hurt him.

You ask God to forgive you and pray, pray, pray that no harm will come to your friend because of what you’ve said. You do what damage control you can – apologize to the person you gossiped to and tell him that what you said was hearsay and please not to pass it along. If it does come to your friend’s ears, you humbly beg him to forgive you, confess that you were so, so wrong and express how you wish you could go back and unsay it, and perhaps your friend does forgive you. How likely are you to do that again without thinking?

A friend in youth ministry shared that he was addicted to internet porn for a long time. He struggled with it but couldn’t bring himself to stop – until his wife found out and threatened to leave him. He loved his wife, and this brought home to him how much his addiction was hurting her and would hurt their little boys, should they find out. Through this, and through his asking other brothers for help, God gave him the strength and desire to stop. The misery his addiction caused had finally overcome the pleasure he found in it.

And the misery of whatever sins you’ve fallen into and are unwilling/unable to relinquish will catch up with you, too, my brother. And you will quit eventually, and be oh so glad to see them growing into tiny specks in the rear-view mirror. But God is a wise Father and will not require more than He enables you to do. You will have to struggle with some things. That’s part of growing up, and if you never struggle, you will never grow stronger. Wouldn’t you prefer to be strong rather than weak?

A beginning weight lifter starts working with weights that hardly seem a burden at all. If he looks at the huge barbells other more experienced weight lifters are pressing, he may get discouraged, but he has to remember that if a 5K weight is all he can handle, then that’s all he has to lift. It’s his training. In time, and with practice, he will graduate to 10 and 20 and so on, but there’s no need to get stressed about it. He will not be asked to lift a heavier weight than he can lift, and he can handle 5K just fine.

You don’t have to start out with 250K, but you are clearly unhappy with life as it is for you, or you wouldn’t be here. You’re afraid of punishment, and you should be. The “punishment” may be the consequences of your (metaphorical) gossip coming home to you when your friend finds out what you’ve done. That would sure be enough punishment for me! The thing is that the punishment/chastisement IS the cure. If you will not/cannot judge yourself, then you will be judged. But judgment is a good thing, not a bad thing, because it ultimately leads to freedom.

Blessings, Cindy

Thank you for the reply, Cindy.

I think what Jason is trying to say bro is that God means to heal us and set us free, and will not stop until that has been fully accomplished…
If you could see all of our mess, all of the bad stuff in our lives and hearts, as a disease, then you could say that God is like a doctor, and means to cure that disease, and to make us well and whole, and no matter the cost.

Our part is to try and cooperate with that process as much as we are able, and I think that begins with trust more than it does with obedience, trusting that God really does have our best interests at heart and knows what He’s doing, and will stick with us for the long haul even though we may stumble and fall along the way…

In the end, I would say that though it really is more about God’s grace than our desire and effort, I do believe that our desire and effort do play some part, even if a tiny one…

I agree with what Cindy was saying (almost always do, she’s a wise one :wink:), focus on doing what you can, not what you can’t… and I think when we keep going and don’t give up, when we keep praying and fighting the battle, instead of just walking away, then we’ll change over time… it may be gradual, even so gradual that it’s barely noticeable to us, but that doesn’t mean it’s not happening…

Hey, even the fact that you’re here asking for help and advice about this shows something, shows that God is working in your heart, and that you’re on the right path.

If you didn’t want to learn or grow then that would be a bad sign, but the fact that you’re showing a desire to learn and grow is a good sign, if you ask me. :slight_smile:

I know how hard it is to not beat oneself up, I’ve done it a lot over the years, sometimes even literally… it’s easy to think that you’re more messed up than anyone else.

But all things are possible with God. One of the promises I feel that God has given me is that promise. That He can complete His work in me, that He can change me, can make me stronger, wiser, braver, more loving, more true…

That He can somehow bring me to that place.

But I also believe that He wants me to be a part of that process as much as I am able… He wants us to be involved, and to engage, as much as we can…

It’s a mystery to us how our will and God’s will mix together, and I don’t know how exactly it does…

But I do believe that God smiles upon even our most awkward and haphazard and small attempts to do what’s right, to really live and really love, and still loves us and is committed to us even when we come up short…

And that’s something you can hold onto. :slight_smile:

Blessings to you bro, and may God give you hope and peace :slight_smile:

Matt

Hi Andre, I don’t know you or your history so this might seem like a strange question to ask. When you were growing up, what was your relationship with your dad like?

I ask because I believe that MacDonald could understand how much more graceful God is than Lewis because MacDonald was much closer to his earthly father.

When I was growing up I can’t ever remember my dad telling me that he loved me, but if he did I think I would have been disappointed. It would be like telling an intelligent person who grew up in the country that leaves on trees are green. To say such a thing is really an insult to ones intelligence.

I knew my dad loved me. Some times when I did something wrong he would just tell me and some times he’d use corporal punishment, but I always knew what I had done wrong; except this one time. One time I got a hiding (I was about 8 years old), after that I went under my bed (and cried), I didn’t know what I had done wrong. And then I stopped and thought, “I must have done something wrong because I know he loves me.” To this day I still don’t know what I did wrong but it has never bothered me.

I think MacDonald has a clearer understanding of God’s grace that any of the reformers. No one will go to hell for their past sins (love keeps no record of wrongs) and no one will go to hell because of the sins they were unaware of and therefore were unable to repent of them. If any of us do go to hell it will because we have not repented of a sin that we are aware of. If I go to hell it will be because I have not repented. The Kingdom of God belongs to he who overcomes.

God will save us from our sin. We cannot save ourselves. Without him we are lost. His discipline and his punishment are two different things, but they are both done because he loves us.

Don’t let God’s severity on sin get you down. “The joy of the Lord is your strength.” There is always some good thing we can thank God for (and the less we feel like thanking him the more we need to).

And we might all be surprised by just how gentle, fair and kind he is in his judgements.

Don’t worry, the God of the Bible is not as Jonathon Edwards describes. His wrath burns because of his love.

It was okay. He got mad at me a lot it seemed.

That is awful.

What would happen to a person with dementia or some other ailment that causes a loss of memory? Will God still punish them for sins forgotten?

.

I hate having to judge my every action and thought. How is this good news? Guilt, self-hate…

Why can’t he just leave us alone? Why does life under him have to be like this?

Awful? Why do you think it was awful?

When you read MacDonald, do you get the impression that his experience of God was awful?

And what do you think God will do to you if you fall into temptation?

I think its awful that your old man clobbered you for a reason you don’t know and you are okay with it. You are hiding under the bed crying, but you think its okay because he loves you.

Do you know how bad this sounds?

I do not feel bitter about it at all. Would it be better if I was?

I could not imagine any child being closer to his father than I was (or at least a child having warmer feelings toward his father than I did). I know that it may sound strange to some.

When all things are made new, people will not look back on some of their experiences on this earth and feel a sense of bitterness (Even when someone intended evil.) When they look back i think they will feel as Joseph felt toward his brothers.

This too might seem strange, so it would be wise to finish reading this before commenting. Have you considered that you might be working way too hard?

Be lazy. Don’t do anything unless you have to.

I don’t know what exactly you are doing in your life; but here are just a few of the things that people do that they do not have to. Watching tv, playing video games (and a whole host of sins, e.g. Watching porn).

Relax. Thank God for the good things. (And that is something you should do whether you feel like it or not. But you must be convinced they are good, so think carefully about what is good so that your thanks is not empty. Otherwise you will be thanking God with your lips but be bitter in your heart.)

God wants to free you from all the things you do not have to do. They are an incredible burden. Once you give them up you’ll feel way better.

Yes it is hard following Jesus, but only because we often look at things in such a backward kind of way.

Another experience that might help. My brother often tried to earn my father’s love, but he never knew dad. (Strange how you can live with someone all your life and not know them.) He simply did not understand that dad loved us so he was always working to try and earn that love. I didn’t work for it at all. I felt completely free.

I know dad was not perfect. I could see his faults. In fact I rebuked dad a few times when I was a kid. And on the odd occasion in front of others. But I knew I could. Yes I was angry when I did, but I knew it was not dangerous (not in the same sense as having done something wrong) because what I said was right and true and that dad would know it to be such. He also knew that i said what i said because I cared. I’m not saying I went through some mental process before telling him that what he was doing was wrong, I told him simply because I loved him. My love made me strong, gentle and firm at the same time.

We never went to church. Perhaps that was one advantage I had. I did not have my head filled with silly things. I was not trying to live up to some standard. Simply put, my relationships were important to me, and no relationship was more important to me than my relationship with dad.

Hey Rob, I can really relate to where you’re coming from, bro… even coming to believe in universal salvation, there is still this fear under the surface, deep down inside of me, that comes out now and then, of an overly harsh and demanding God, and though He means to ‘save’ all, I sometimes find myself wondering, at what cost will that ‘salvation’ come, and will that ‘salvation’ only be some kind of mindless slavery? :neutral_face:
Will one have to forfeit their own self-awareness, and lose all of their individuality, for the sake of the collective? :neutral_face:
These are just some of the thoughts that brew under the surface… :frowning:

And this brings up the fact that really, when it comes down to it, our eschatology, or what we believe about the final outcome, doesn’t matter as much as our belief about God does… if we believe in universal salvation, or that God will save everyone, basically that there is no such thing as an everlasting hell, separation, or punishment, but still believe somewhere in our hearts that God is some kind of tyrannical ogre or an indifferent observer, then it doesn’t help us much, because even with universal salvation in mind, our fears and our doubts about God can still paint a terrifying and horrifying picture of what that ‘universal salvation’ might look like…

For about as long as I can remember, I’ve wrestled with my view of God. I’ve had many doubts and many fears. Perhaps you can relate to this. I’ve cried, I’ve screamed, I’ve cursed, I’ve pleaded, I’ve begged, I’ve ached, I’ve longed, and I’ve agonized in prayer, throwing anger and fear and pain and hope in God’s direction over the years…

Lately, in the last year or so, I haven’t wrestled as much as I once did, and I think coming to believe in universal salvation has helped some with that, but I know that that image of a cruel and untrustworthy or else careless and distant God is still buried deep inside of me, and could rear its ugly head at any moment, until it’s been totally destroyed… and when that will happen, I don’t know…

In the last few days I’ve been re-reading a book I read aways back called Ruthless Trust by Brennan Manning.

Just to say, on a sidenote, Brennan Manning was one of the authors who really helped me out a lot a few years ago through his books, helped me to find some kind of faith in Christ after running from God during my early twenties… he’s an honest, down-to-earth, compassionate writer, and I do believe that he has Universalist leanings, though I didn’t see that when I first read his books…

(here’s a link to Ruthless Trust on Amazon if you’re interested in checking it out:
amazon.com/Ruthless-Trust-Ra … less+trust)

Anyways, in the book, Manning makes the argument that at the core of our relationship with God, or any relationship with God, there must be trust.
And he says that trust is basically faith + hope, faith in God’s presence and hope in God’s promises, which kind of makes sense to me.

(He also quotes from another author, who’s definition of trust he was very fond of, which was that ‘trust is the courage to accept acceptance’ :slight_smile:)

And he does talk a lot about how we view God, and how that impacts our relationship with Him.
And one of the things he brings up is how Jesus must be our way of coming to know who God really is, because Christ, as the Bible claims, is the perfect representation of God’s character and heart.
So in order to get to know God, we must get to know Jesus first, because if you see Him, then you see the Father, or our Abba (an Aramaic word which basically translates as ‘Daddy’), as Manning would like to say. :slight_smile:

Manning also points out that all our preconceived views of who God is and what He’s like, whether terrifying or comforting, must be tossed aside when we encounter Christ, and instead of projecting our mistaken and/or incomplete views onto Christ and then onto the Father, we need to allow God, through His Spirit, via whatever means He chooses, to show us Himself who He really is and what He’s really like…

(On another sidenote, I don’t really understand the whole mechanics of God very well, like the whole Trinity thing or alternative views… I’m hoping God will help me to come to a better understanding of that in the future though…)

Here’s a quote to give you some idea of the flavor of the book:

‘I want neither a terrorist spirituality that keeps me in a perpetual state of fright about being in right relationship with my heavenly Father nor a sappy spirituality that portrays God as such a divine teddy bear that there is no aberrant behavior or desire of mine that he will not condone. I want a right relationship with the Abba of Jesus, who is infinitely compassionate with my brokenness and at the same time an awesome, incomprehensible, and unwieldy Mystery.’

I’m just about done with the book, and re-reading it I’ve been challenged. I do feel like I have so much to learn, and that when it comes down to it, I’m probably rather immature spiritually, and it’s tempting to hate myself for it. :neutral_face:

But Manning addresses this feeling as well, pointing out in different places that though Jesus wants us to follow Him and become like He is, He works with us and is with us through the process, and understands our struggle… here’s another quote from the book that illustrates this:

‘Raw honesty with Jesus about our doubts and anxieties, our shabby prayer life and stale religiosity, our mixed motives and divided hearts is the risk we take in the certainty of being acceptable and accepted. It is the full and mature expression of invincible trust. Jesus is the friend who will never fail, the faithful one who will never be lacking in fidelity, even when people are unfaithful to him, the stranger to self-hatred who estranges us from self-hatred.’

So basically honesty is at the root of trust… so I think even just telling God openly and honestly that we’re scared of Him or angry with Him is a sign that we trust Him at least on some level deep down… trust Him enough to be real with Him… trust that He won’t obliterate us or ignore us when we open up to Him…

And I think He wants us to be real and open with Him. He wants us to engage in whatever way we can… like Manning points out in another author’s quote ‘90 percent of prayer is just showing up’.

It’s hard I know, trusting someone, or even believing in someone, having some kind of meaningful relationship with someone, that you can’t see with your eyes or hear with your ears or feel with your hands or totally understand in your heart, but that is what is asked of us.

Jesus said to Thomas ‘Blessed are those who believe without seeing.’

Perhaps He could have just as easily have said ‘Blessed are those who trust without understanding.’

It’s like my fiancee Kaylyn says: ‘If we can’t trust God, then who can we trust?’

That’s a good question, and really gets to the heart of this.

If the very foundation and ground of our very existence and our being is untrustworthy, then where can we go? Where can we run or hide? We’d be hopeless, and that’s all there is to it. :neutral_face:

But that’s where trust comes in. We can either choose to assume that God is either a cruel tyrant who wants to condemn and/or enslave us, or that God is some kind of namby pamby Santa Claus figure who has no interest in or power to change us for the better, or somewhere in between or in that spectrum, or, we can believe something entirely out of that spectrum…
We can look to the cross, and see Someone who is willing to lay down their life for us, and look to the empty tomb, and see Someone with whom all things are possible, and who has the desire and the power to reconcile and restore and make all things new…

I wrestle with those terrifying images of God, and those comforting ones, too… but I know that the truth of who God is and what He’s like must be far more wonderful and beautiful, as well as far more awe-inspiring and humbling, then any kind of image or conception that I’ve picked up along the way…

I believe we all see through a glass darkly, and none of us have everything figured out… we can catch glimpses of Christ, and thereby of the Father… we can catch those glimpses in the Bible when something in there actually connects with us and makes sense to us (instead of confusing or frightening us), and in other literature as well, in music and in film and in all kinds of art, in nature, in our circumstances and memories, in dreams and visions, in miracles, and in the people around us, and even in our hearts…

And sometimes catching those glimpses of Christ and holding onto them may be like only touching the edge of His robes, but that can still be enough to bring us healing and bring us just a little bit closer to the Father, bring us just a little bit closer towards home…

Well, that’s all I have to share for now bro.

Just remember that you’re not alone. All of us are struggling in one way or another, and all of us need help in one way or another. But I believe that He is our Helper, and that He will stick with us always through thick and thin and will bring us all to where we were meant to be… and deep down in our hearts, where we ache and long to be…

Blessings to you Rob, and peace :slight_smile:

Matt

Matt,

Your prose is more like poetry than most poetry. That was beautiful – thanks! :smiley:

The book you’re talking about sounds like just the thing for one of the brothers in our group. Looking at it, I see that it’s a sequel. Should I get him both, or did you like the first one at all?

Love, Cindy

The following is my own summary of what I consider to be George MacDonald’s view of God’s judgment of the individual:

Exactly!

Paidion wrote:

Amen!

Thanks Cindy :slight_smile:

Yes, it’s a sequel to The Ragamuffin Gospel, which is definitely worth checking out as well.
In fact, it was one of the books that helped me find faith again a few years ago.
I’m indebted to Brennan Manning, you could say, as well as authors like Philip Yancey and Frederick Buechner. :slight_smile:

You may want to check them out yourself first though before passing them on. I don’t wholeheartedly agree with absolutely everything Manning has to say, though probably most of it. But you may see things differently than I do, so you may want to look at them first so you can judge better whether or not they would be helpful to the guy in your group. :slight_smile:

They’re only about 150 pages apiece, plus he has a breezy style, so it shouldn’t take you too long to go through them. :slight_smile:

Blessings to you, sister :slight_smile:

Matt

Thanks for the post edward. Yes, I still wrestle with a harsh image of God. Even in UR. I have read Manning’s other book, The Ragamuffin Gospel; I liked it the first time, but in subsequent readings I ended up feeling condemned. I had a not so good experience at his message board too.

Its really insane; I feel crushed by George MacDonald’s call for obedience, but I am at the same time greatly encouraged by his view of God as a Father who doesn’t give up. I also like that he insists that people jettison images of God that would be repugnant if applied to a human being. Its a love/hate thing I guess (except hate is too strong a word).