Thanks, Matt
And yes, of course I’ll read them first. 
Blessings, Cindy
You’re welcome, Cindy I actually just finished it tonight.
I love how he wraps it up in the last chapter, it’s beautiful. And you can definitely see UR shining through. 
By the way, he’s written a number of other books as well… he’s fairly prolific.
You’re welcome, bro. You’re not alone. Yeah, though I appreciate Manning a great deal, and he has a number of gold nuggets in his writings that have spoken to me, and much of his writings encouraged me a lot early on, occasionally he comes on a bit too strong, and may not realize it, and like I said to Cindy, I don’t agree with him a hundred percent on everything… I can tell he’s a caring and honest man, and I respect him a lot, but he does seem a little bit rough around the edges at times, which I’m sure he’d openly admit to…
I’m sorry you had a bad experience on his message board. 
An author you might feel more comfortable with, whom both Manning and I are big fans of (I tried him out because Manning mentioned him often in his books, and admired him greatly), is Philip Yancey… his writings were a huge breath of fresh air to me early on… I haven’t read his stuff for awhile, though I intend to get back into his stuff soon, as I’m sure it would encourage me…
I’m sure that nowadays I probably wouldn’t agree with all of his theology, but his writing style is very compassionate and gracious, and the picture of God that he paints is very encouraging…
You may also want to check out Frederick Buechner, whom Yancey was a fan of and mentioned often, and who is equally compassionate and gracious in his approach and encouraging in the picture of God that he paints, not to mention very eloquent and deep in his reflections…
Those two authors, even more than Manning, had a profound impact on me…
They are both considered by many as, you might say, ‘apostles to the doubtful’, having wrestled with doubt, including their perception of God, a great deal themselves… Buechner even once said ‘if there is no room for doubt, then there is no room for me’. I can resonate with that.
I think it would be good to expose yourself to authors that you can resonate with, who have struggled as you have… maybe some of the things they’ve learned that have helped them to keep going might help you too… more than anything it sounds like you need encouragement, you need reassurance of God’s goodness and love and trustworthiness.
Unfortunately, reading the Bible, being as complex and difficult as it often is, may not always be the best thing for that, for just straight encouragement, at least in my opinion, and reading someone like MacDonald, as meaty as his stuff can be, may not be the best thing either…
So you may want to give Yancey and/or Buechner a try.
For Yancey, I recommend trying out What’s So Amazing About Grace? first:
amazon.com/Whats-So-Amazing- … bout+grace
You may also want to check out Disappointment With God
amazon.com/Disappointment-Go … pd_sim_b_4
and Reaching For The Invisible God
amazon.com/Reaching-Invisibl … pd_sim_b_3
Also, I highly recommend the two books that he co-authored with the late Dr. Paul Brand, Fearfully and Wonderfully Made and its sequel, In His Image:
amazon.com/Fearfully-Wonderf … 708&sr=1-5
amazon.com/In-His-Image-Paul … gy_b_img_b
Those are among my favorites of his books, but I think all of his books are worth checking out.
For Buechner, I haven’t read quite as much of his stuff as I’ve read of Yancey’s, but I’d recommend starting out with either Telling The Truth: The Gospel as Tragedy, Comedy, and Fairy Tale
amazon.com/Telling-Truth-Gos … as+tragedy
or The Alphabet Of Grace
amazon.com/The-Alphabet-Grac … pd_sim_b_3
Also, his books of sermons are excellent:
amazon.com/The-Magnificent-D … d_sim_b_10
amazon.com/The-Hungering-Dar … gy_b_img_b
And my personal favorite of his is his collection of uncollected writings, A Room Called Remember:
amazon.com/Room-Called-Remem … d_sim_b_12
That should give you a lot of material to read through if you’re interested, and fortunately most of the books I’ve recommended here you can get pretty cheap used on Amazon.
Though I believe that both Yancey and Buechner, like Brennan Manning, have Universalist leanings, or would be very open to the hope of universal restoration (though they may not state that openly), if you’re looking for an openly Universalist author who is more encouraging, my first thought would be my good friend Charles Slagle, who’s writings you can read free here:
But I recommend starting out with this, his article entitled Heavenly Dog: sigler.org/slagle/newpage3.htm
It spoke deeply to my heart and encouraged me greatly and I resonated with it a lot when I first read it… and it also inspired me to search Charles out and make his acquaintance, and now we’re good friends, and talk often on the phone.
May it encourage you as well.
Hopefully these reading recommendations will help in some way…
But also I’d recommend that not only should you be open with God about how you really feel about Him, even if those feelings are negative, but also ask Him to help you in your heart to trust Him if He is indeed trustworthy, to help you to believe that He loves you and everyone if that is indeed the case, and keep asking Him for that assurance… and don’t stop asking. Keep knocking, every time you pray and it comes to mind, like the persistent widow.
Just let Him know how desperately you want to trust Him and feel confident about Him… and how much you need Him and want to be close to Him, want to be close to someone you can trust… don’t be afraid to pour out your heart…
Of course I believe God already knows about everything that’s going on inside of you, which means you don’t need to worry about articulating it all perfectly, but getting it off your chest in prayer does help, I believe… and I believe He is listening…
I believe He has listened to me in my struggles… and I believe He will listen to you as well, and is listening even now…
The Bible says that God is near to those who are broken-hearted and those who are crushed in spirit… and that includes us when we’re struggling with fears and doubts about Him and about ourselves and everything…
So just keep praying and don’t give up. You’re not alone.
And for your encouragement, here’s an excerpt from my friend Charles’ book, Abba Calling, a book of messages from God, which Charles got from listening to the Spirit (Cindy will know just what I’m talking about, and may even want to ask me about his book ):
Blessings to you bro, and may God give you hope and peace
Matt
Thank you edward. I have actually read Beuchner; the book was called Wishful Thinking; I think its now retitled the ABC of Grace, as you mentioned. I have never read The Magnificent Defeat, but I am curious now. I am also familiar with Charles Slagle’s writings. More than anyone else I’ve ever read he breaks down the problems and practical effects of bad theology. Thank you for the encouragement. This IS all about my view of God; it effects everything. Only if I can totally trust God, if I know his grace is unconditional, sure and absolute can I be at peace.
Matthew,
That . is . amazing. 
Here is what I received from Jesus and Abba (through the Holy Spirit, of course) on 7/12/2012:
(So at this point I had to go and search out what the bruised reed and the smoking flax might be.)
“I see that the reed is a walking stick – unusable if bruised. And the flax is a wick, which if smoking fills the house with stinky black smoke, not light.”
So I said,
“Help me, Abba. I want so very much to obey You. I don’t want to act on my own, but only as You direct me. But I’m afraid I may mistake my own impulse for Your direction – or take off on my own without thinking.”
The whole thing about the bruised reed and smoking flax stood out in high relief to me. This isn’t a verse I’d ever thought much about. It sounds poetic and I liked the texture and rhythm of the words and didn’t even think to wonder what it meant. So for you to come up with this out of the blue, well, maybe it’s a coincidence, but it feels like a confirmation to me. Thanks so much for sharing this!
Love in Him, Cindy
Hey, Andre.
Haven’t read much in this thread but wanted to keep this short and sweet.
First of all, we have to ask what we are being saved from. Sin, or from hell? If the latter, then I think our theology and soteriology becomes rather complicated. But if the former (as I believe scripture testifies), then it is quite simple. The Lord saves us from ourselves, and then we live to Him.
Now, MacDonald is talking generally to those whom are already believers, to those whom already have the Lord residing within. We are to work out what God puts in.
But of course also each teacher must respond to the zeitgeist of his age (as Luther said). For instance, the three teachers whom have had the biggest impact on me were Madame Guyon, Oswald Chambers and George MacDonald. Quite an eclectic assortment because their emphases were quite different.
Madame Guyon felt that too many people were distressed by works and having to strive to please God, so she emphasized a completely different angle. She was a proponent of Quietism, which taught believers to seek God deep within, and was almost wholly silent on the believers’ own effort in the process. In fact, in reading Union with God, one would get the impression that our own transformation is completely out of our hands and the most one can do is to allow oneself to sink within.
And then Oswald Chambers, who came just after MacDonald, was working with people who were full of worldly striving and attempts to be overly pious. He taught in turn a simplicity in Christ, with a full-fledged passionate pursuit of God, in full acknowledgment of one’s helplessness and God being both the inspirer and the entire force behind our obedience. In the end, he says, we realize that there was no human element in our reaching out in covenantal relationship.
But what was George MacDonald fighting? He was battling the self-satisfied, arrogant complacence of hyper-Calvinists who were convinced that they had a righteousness totally imputed to them so that they need not concern themselves with living the rugged life of a disciple of Christ.
So in comes MacD cutting through all of that with the sharp scathing sword of rebuke. He made it clear that we must be serious about living the life of Christ. In the process his emphasis was more on what that looks like rather than the main source of power, for his audience was already quite sure that God was the source of said power in the individual. MacDonald does touch upon that, but seeks to also not be misunderstood that if one’s nature does not demonstrate the fruits of the spirit to any extent, that it is not the Spirit of Christ that they are drawing upon.
Like a white blood cell consuming the disease and providing the antidote, good teachers always respond to the specific issues of their day and culture/subculture. And everyone needs slightly different medicine. The great truths of God are far too broad and deep (and paradoxical) for one angle to suffice. There are multiple facets to God and reality, and thus multiple ways one can stumble.
That ended up being way longer than I meant for it to, but hopefully it helps.
God bless,
Justin
Also, what I meant to add is that from my superficial reading of you, you might benefit better from someone like a Madame Guyon. Her “Union with God” is online, though that translation is a bit obscure. I highly recommend the Seed Sowers translation which can be had for pretty cheap. I had it typed up online before but then was slack about rescuing it from Geocities. Oh well. 
You’re welcome again, bro
Oh, that’s cool, I’ve read parts of that one I think. I think the book you’re thinking of is a collection including Wishful Thinking and two other books, Peculiar Treasures and Whistling In The Dark I think, in one volume.
The Alphabet Of Grace is a series of reflections about the course of one day in Buechner’s life. One of Buechner’s most prominent teachings is how God speaks to us through our lives, and not only in the big things but in the little things, which is something I’ve really taken to heart.
My favorite sermon in The Magnificent Defeat is called Breaking The Silence, in Part 3 of the book, which is about prayer, and my favorite sermon in The Hungering Dark is The Sign By The Highway, in part 2 of the book, which is about Jesus and how he saves us.
My favorite piece in his collection A Room Called Remember is probably the one called Faith, which is about, well, faith, and a close second is the one the book is named after. It’s all awesome, deep, and very poetic and encouraging stuff.
I told Charles today on the phone about how you said his writings had impacted you, and he was encouraged to hear that.
If you and/or Cindy were interested, here’s a link to his new book, Abba Calling, on Amazon, if you’d like to get a copy:
amazon.com/Abba-Calling-Hear … les+slagle
Yes, I think a lot of our problems and struggles stem from how we see and understand God in our hearts, who He is and what He’s like… like you said, it effects everything. And I totally understand where you’re coming from there. It’s like Kaylyn my fiancee said, if we can’t trust God then who can we trust? If the very ground of our being is pulled out from under us, then where do we have to stand… it’s like I shared over on the Chad Holtz thread, what Hannah Whitall Smith said:
In my opinion it would be better if there were no God at all then if there was an untrustworthy one… so if there is one, then our hope is that He is trustworthy rather than not… it may seem like a risk sometimes, but that is the kind of risk we have to take, much like a kind of modified Paschal’s Wager, only having to do with trusting God rather than believing in Him…
To illustrate this, maybe I can use an analogy… there’s a movie I watched a couple years ago called The Road (good movie by the way, also read the book by Cormac McCarthy, which was excellent)…
In the film, in a post-apocalyptic world there is a father and his son traveling across country towards the Pacific Coast, trying to find what they need to survive, as they are ever on the outlook and evading people who have turned to cannibalism… there are two groups of people of those who are left in the world… scavengers and cannibals… the father and son are among the former, as they are ‘carrying the fire’ or hanging onto their humanity, as the father tells his son… anyways, eventually the boy’s father gets sick, and dies towards the end of the film (their parting is very moving and heart-wrenching by the way, made me cry), and the boy is left, on a beach on the Pacific coast, with the few supplies they have left, the wisdom and love his father had left with him, and a gun with only bullet remaining in it.
He begins walking along the beach, and soon sees a man. When the man approaches him, he points the gun at him.
The man doesn’t look very savory. His teeth are kind of crooked and yellow, he has a somewhat unattractive face, and long and dirty and stringy hair… and he is carrying a crossbow… in other words, he certainly looks like he could be a cannibal.
The man asks the kid to put the gun down, that he means him no harm. He says that he has a wife and a couple kids closeby, and if the boy would like to, he’d be welcome to join them.
The boy continues to point the gun at the stranger, and asks him if he’s ‘carrying the fire’. The man looks at him incredulously, not knowing what he’s talking about and asks the boy what he’s talking about, but the boy just asks the man more firmly if he’s ‘carrying the fire’, and the man says ‘yeah, yeah, I’m carrying the fire’, probably to keep the kid from shooting him.
In response, the boy says ‘How do I know you’re telling the truth? How do I know you’re not a cannibal?’
And in answer to this, the man, now down on one knee, pauses for a moment, looking at the boy in a tender sort of way, and says ‘You don’t know. You’re just gonna have to take a shot.’
There is a moment of silence between them, where they just look at eachother… and the boy thinks to himself, and decides to lower his gun, and go with the man… the man, it turns out, was telling the truth. The boy meets his wife and his two children, including a pretty young girl who looks at the boy with shy interest… and after their introductions, the film ends with a butterfly (or a beetle, can’t remember which), which shouldn’t be alive because the apocalypse wiped out virtually all living things, flies up into the sky, signifying hope…
This scene really spoke to me, if I believe God spoke to me through it (as I believe He has done through other films) especially how the man says so honestly ‘You don’t know. You’re just gonna have to take a shot.’
That is the hope that we have, Rob. That if we trust God, then we ultimately won’t be disappointed in the end…
Our hope is that He will lead us home, that He will give our hearts rest and peace, and that there will joy as well, joy that eclipses all of the despair we’ve ever known… and that this will be known by all in due time as well…
It seems a naive and childish hope… it seems easier to believe that we will end up being cannibalized, or at best that there will be limits, there will be conditions, there will be fine print… but we are asked to trust that no such thing will happen, that the truth, after we close our eyes in death and awake again, will be something (or Someone) grounded ultimately in love and goodwill…
We are asked to take God at His word… we are asked to take a shot with Him… we are asked to live with this hope and to be guided by it as if it were true, taking it by faith that we will find that it is indeed true, when our faith becomes sight…
And that’s all we can do…
Hopefully this helps you out in some way, bro.
May you be blessed
Matt
You’re welcome, Cindy I shared how you found confirmation in this with Charles Slagle on the phone today, and he was encouraged to hear that. I gotta get you two together sometime, I think you guys could make friends. He’s on your FB friends list I think, maybe you can drop him a line and compare journal entries.
Blessings to you sister
Cool thought there, bro Thanks for your input
Matt
I think I understand better. I looked up Madame Guyon and found that she was saying sort of the opposite of George MacDonald (though not really). Both she and he were responding to the era and thought they lived in.
What if instead of calling it obedience you called it trust?
Sometimes I pray something like, “Lord, I do not love you as I should. I know you are good. Help me to trust you by doing what you ask.”
People sometimes say they trust their doctor. It is because they trust their docotor they do what she or he asks. We can choose to trust. That is the issue here. Day by day, moment by moment, choose to trust God.
Cool, glad that helped you! Hope you can find similar sources to really draw encouragement from as well, as needed. 
God bless,
Justin
You helped me too Justin.
Thanks
“Lord, I trust You!–help my lack of trust!”
An awesome famous scriptural scene there.
Very much agreed with Paidion’s rephrase of MacD’s teaching of the difference between human and divine judgment, btw.
Thanks for all the great quotations and resource links, Matt!
Hey AndreLinoge-
How are you doing now?
Sorry, Andre…
Meant to edit your post for language and accidentally deleted it. You can post it again if you wish and I’ll edit it. Doesn’t bother me but best to keep that language off the boards to keep mods/admins off you. Yes, it doesn’t make sense, I know, but those are the rules.
This is a very good, thoughtful thread.
Andre, I’ve been trying to understand why you find GMac’s insistence upon obedience and moral transformation so disheartening, given his emphatic insistence upon the unconditional love and mercy of God and universal salvation.
Imagine this scenario. You have terminal cancer. The doctor comes to your bedside and speaks. Which is better news?
- “You have terminal cancer. I do have a wonderful pain medication that will allow you to die without any suffering at all.”
or
- “You have terminal cancer. One of the drug companies has just released a new experimental drug that will totally heal you of your cancer, but there will be some painful side-effects.”
GMac’s approach, I suggest, is #2. He knows that simply accepting the sinner (option #1) is not good news at all. Good news is salvation, and that means the healing and reconstruction of the sinner so that he is capable of enjoying the trinitarian life of God.
I presume that you find yourself in bondage to a particular pattern of sinfulness from which you are presently unable to free yourself. As a result you experience your existence as condemnation. Does that sound right? Which of the above options is best for your situation?
In the meantime, while you are awaiting the liberation of God from your sin, remember the important words of St Paul: There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus! Be patient. God is easy to please but hard to satisfy. He will not be satisfied until he has delivered you completely from sin.
Hi Kimmel, so glad you posted in this thread. I can identify with the above to a point. For example - There was an area of my life that I had to turn around completely (when God broke me). While I have been able to turn away from the sin, it is still has a grip on me via temptation and perhaps even sin in thought form if I am not vigilant enough. And, sometimes for a brief moment, I feel like it would be easier to revert to my sin patterns. In fact, a sharp fear hits me when that thought comes of “Just give up and give in”. So while I am walking in victory over this sin, the victory seems hallow if only because the temptation is so frequent and strong, despite making no provision for the flesh.
Where I am going with this, is this: Is it really proper interpretation of Romans 8:1 to say that there is no condemnation while one remains in a sinful state? I have seen many written essays on Romans 8:1-4 and there are really only two views.
A) That the reason there is no condemnation is because when you follow after the spirit you simply don’t sin. Now, that doesn’t mean we can live perfectly sinless at all times. But it does mean that when we follow the spirit, we will not gratify the desires of the flesh, and thus, there is on condemnation. Quite truly, that seems to me the most obvious interpretation of this verse/passage when using logical reasoning. However, I do admit that the alternate view is just as likely for other reasons.
B) That God will forgive and doesn’t condemn you when you fail, even knowingly. Just keep walking after the spirit, if you fall, get back up and keep going, God doesn’t condemn you. This seems right if only because psychologically this is proven true. If you remove the guilt and shame, many types a behaviors can be conquered. But if you leave the condemnation, guilt and shame, you will likely perpetuate the sin cycle. Most forms of addiction treatment acknowledge this.
I honestly believe that both interpretations have credibility, I just not sure which one is what Paul was talking about. How did you come to decide on B)?
My best guess: I came to decide on “B” after reading John Henry Newman’s Lectures on Justification many years ago. They helped me to integrate the imputational/eschatological dimension of the Reformation understanding of justification into a more catholic understanding.
But perhaps my choice for “B” it goes even further back to the mid- or late 70s when I read C. S. Lewis’s The Great Divorce. There’s no question that everyone on the bus is already “accepted” and loved unconditionally by God; but what they need is healing and deliverance, not just acceptance (though perhaps acceptance is the first step in their healing—why else would they get on the bus?). The one person in the story who is saved (i.e., who decides to remain in heaven) is the man who allows the angel to kill the creature on his shoulder.
And that’s what I’d like Andre to hear from this thread. He doesn’t need to fear condemnation by God. God only wills our good, and he has showered us with his goodness in the death and resurrection of his Son. If I still fear God, then the problem lies not in God but in myself, in my refusal to believe that God could love even me. I know that struggle, and pathology, only too well.
I don’t believe any of this stuff anymore.