The Evangelical Universalist Forum

God does not approve of believers debating doctrine.

Theology Biblical Theology
#1

Everyone

No where in the bible does it say to “debate” or argue with a believer over their doctrine if it does not line up with the word of God. The bible does say in Titus 3:10-11 " A man that is a heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." In other words, after trying a couple of times to correct them…if they do not receive what your saying…reject them and leave. How did the Apostle Paul handle Hymenaeus and Alexander ( believers) who were teaching and preaching heresies?

1 Timothy 1:19-20 “Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.”

Notice Paul did not debate or argue with them until he convinced them of their error, but followed the process of Titus 3:10-11 and gave them over unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme God. Do you guys see this?

There are 180,000 people who die every day worldwide ( that is one every second) with the majority of them dying without Jesus as Lord and Savior. How much time do you spend on this forum or on other forums arguing with believers about doctrine? I bet most people on this forum( and on other forums) spend more time arguing scripture and doctrine with believers than they do witnessing to the lost. How many people die without Jesus and go to hell when you are doing this? We are never to waste time “debating” other believers about doctrine when a lost and dying world needs to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ preached and demonstrated.

I have learned a valuable lesson these past 6 months on this forum, you can’t teach the unteachable. I should of followed the pattern established by Paul in scripture, but I chose to do it my way and waste 6 months of time. The devil wins when you spend valuable time on forums debating and arguing scripture with believers when people are dying without Jesus and going to hell. My prayer for everyone who dwells on this forum is for you to walk in the truth and victory Jesus died for you to walk in and See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil. (Eph 5:15-16)

Im going to leave this forum with this…please watch this in its entirety :

youtube.com/watch?v=FyfInHetQME

When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die ; and thou givest him not warning , nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life ; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Ezek 3:18-19.

God bless,
Aaron

[UPDATE: [url=http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=955&p=13070#p13070]Aaron37’s clarification and correction of what he actually meant.]

JRP vs. Matt Slick on the Sin Against the Holy Spirit
Mt. 25:46
An example of a sin that shall not be forgiven?
Mt. 25:46
Mt. 25:46
An example of a sin that shall not be forgiven?
#2

See you in the outer darkness Aaron :wink: Don’t worry I’ll offer you my coat if you get cold :smiling_imp:

#3

Looks pretty hopeful to me! Too bad you don’t see that “learning not to blaspheme God” is a hopeful goal, not a hopeless final result.

But as you’ve well-demonstrated here: the unteachable cannot be taught. (For example, in 6 months here you have not even yet bothered to learn that universalism does NOT involve a refusal to warn the wicked away from wickedness.)

I guess it’s time for us to hand you over to Satan, so that you may learn not to blaspheme God. :slight_smile: Though personally I would prefer to send you on your way in a less punitive manner, since handing you over to Satan might interfere with your evangelical duties. But, let it be done to you as you would have be done to others.

I hope you will, too, someday. (Seeing as, between the two ideas, it cannot even be sensibly asserted that the victory we are walking in is less of a victory than that which you are preaching.) But, as I have always consistently said, you shouldn’t walk according to what you do NOT believe is true; and so if you don’t believe God’s victory over sin will be as complete and triumphant as we do, then you should do your best to walk by that instead–so long as you’re also looking for more light thereby.

#4

I think you’re right Aaron. God doesn’t approve of believers debating doctrine. That’s part of why I stopped debating you a while ago. Also, my views on universalism are directly revealed to me by the Spirit of God. They are infallible beliefs. I tried to teach you this when you first came on the board, but you showed yourself to be unteachable and resolute in your rejection of divine truth and your contorting of Scripture to suit your preference in the traditions of men. Had you come with a teachable spirit and a heart open to God’s Word, you too would have had the infallible truth of the ultimate universal reconciliation of all things to Christ revealed to you. I thought your heart would ultimately warm to the truth so that you would repent of your false doctrine. Sorry to see you go away into the darkness of man’s tradition.

God bless,
Tom

#5

You got that right! Religious fanatics transcend religion. They are all the same! There is not a hairs-breathe between you and the Muslim or Jewish fanatic.

#6

Aaron,
You would do well to read Talbott’s paper False prophets and the Abuse of Revelation. How, if we are instructed to test the spirits, if we are commanded to be like bereans to verify against scripture what anyone teaches are we supposed to just accept what you or anyone else says.

It is you who denied that God reconciled the world to himself (all things) and endorsed that the bible teaches that God recocniled himself to us and we must reconcile ourselves to him.

It was you who stated God knows all who would accept him and thus wrote their names in the book of life and yet held that God had to erase (blot) names from the book which he wrote.

Everyone challenged you on these grounds and instead of proving yourself to be true with courage you instead tried to fly below the radar and alter your position in order to avoid the UNAVOIDABLE:

God perfectly desires to save all and ALWAYS achieves his purpose…That he might have mercy on them all.

Aug

#7

So is that it? Is Aaron gone?

Tom

#8

I have my doubts. :wink:

#9

Titus 3:10-11 " A man that is a heretic after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."

Is this talking about someone who teaches a certain way or someone that is behaving a certain way?
Innerestin verse, nay?

#10

Titus 3:10-11 (New International Version)

10Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

This translation has a different feel, it sounds like a person that is being belligerent, perhaps? At face value, doctrine isn’t what is being discussed…

#11

All depends on why the person has been labeled heretic in the first place.

(bloomin’ American English spell checker - pah!) :wink:

#12

The word “heretic” in the KJV is actually a transliteration of the Greek word–which is to say the Greek word has been directly carried over, instead of being translated. Most other versions translate the word into “divisive” or “factious”, meaning to take sides and cause divisions or factions. So, I think that somewhat fits with your point about attitudes, Roofus. Now “doctrine” is certainly also included in this case–but perhaps not in the way Aaron37 means it. Aaron’s way here has been to fight over matters of interpretation–and it is good that he has discovered that he has been using his time unwisely. That is a step in the right direction.

The context of the passage (and the entire book/letter) is contrasting between “sound doctrine” and the opposite.

The opposite of sound doctrine, which belongs to ‘those who contradict’ is described in this way:

“…there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain”

“…rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.”

“…They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.”

“…But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.”

Sound doctrine, on the other hand, is very practical: describing right attitudes and ways of thinking, teaching respect and humility toward all men–which results in eagerness for good deeds:

“But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine: that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience; the older women likewise…that they admonish the young women to love their husbands…Likewise, exhort the young men… (and so on)”

“…For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself [His] own special people, zealous for good works. Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority.”

“…Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work,to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient…”

“…But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared–not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy–He saved us…”

“…This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, (so) that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men…”

And all of this, to my mind, harkens back to Christ’s statement regarding false teachers, that: “you will know them by their fruit.”

Sonia

#13

There is nowhere in Scripture that God forbids debate, in Scripture it is called “Reasoning together”.

#14

Agreed! But it’s only possible between ‘reasonable’ people!

Sonia

#15

It’s best to make sure we have the truth hammered down and let it have its way with us first, or else we’ll never be able to clearly reflect it. Modern evangelism has done more to drive people away from Christianity than probably any other force in its history. If we want to be effective we need to dwell on the truth appropriately and let all its ramifications fully sink in. Then the nations will flock in great numbers.

It sounds more like you just feel like you can’t win, and that you’ve realized none of your points are actually valid.

Oh, well. Have fun prematurely trying to spread a message of warning that probably no one will ever listen to. We’ll see how many people you divert from hell compared to us. :unamused:

Love ya anyway
Stellar

#16

St. Paul’s synagogue outreach program largely involved reasoning with leading Jewish believers, debating the scriptures etc. We don’t see much content of this in Acts, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. In fact Acts itself says it happened (while skipping over the content–28:23-24, to give one example.)

For that matter, many of Paul’s epistles involve heavy amounts of theological reasoning, whether concerning principle application or interpretation of scripture. (Ditto for the Epistle to the Hebrews.)

Perhaps the funniest thing about all this (out of several possible contenders for ‘funniest’), is that if it hadn’t been for “believers debating doctrine”, A37 wouldn’t have an option to be Protestant today (the great advocates for which wrote voluminously). Nor would there likely be orthodox trinitarian theism–it’s always a lot “simpler” (by tautology) to just take a “simpler” theological position, from scripture and/or in principle.

At any rate: whatever ways we may think Born Again / Aaron37 behaved poorly while here (and while leaving), let us self-critically strive to NOT do the same, but to do something better instead in regard to our opponents.

#17

Amen, amen. Totally.

I’m always confused, though, about where the line is drawn. My last post in here had a segment edited out that seemed to be more a statement of fact than one of rudeness, while leaving another segment that probably was rude.

In my mind, in order for justice to be done, people need to be discouraged from making unfair, biased and even judgmental remarks. I don’t see how this can be done any other way than just calling them out. And while I understand the intentions of this forum, sometimes you haven’t held back from using a scathing tongue, either. I just don’t see how it can be avoided, in fact in order to keep peace in the long run I think there needs to be a modicum of conflict in the short term.

#18

Not to mention the Bereans, who were commended for searching the scriptures to verify what they were being told.

Nah, I don’t buy it Aaron. You’re just looking for an easy way to win the argument/ have the last word.

It just goes to show that you’re still stuck in the letter of the Word and not the Spirit, as we all were at some point.

#19

Link to this comment from another thread.

#20

Touché Jason. Touché.

Tom