Thanks for both your posts, one being on eriphos referring to young goats, and the one of timoria also being retributive. They are both interesting. The shepherd separated his flock based on the needs of the various groups. Those of us (even us believers) who live selfishly need remedial punishment in order to help us change. Those of us who live unselfishly need to be encouraged.
This passage powerully encourages us to be careful how we treat others, especially how we treat those who are less fortunate. When exegetically interpreting parables and metaphors it’s important to not read into them more than the most evident message. Of course, parables often inspire us with messages that are beyond the most evident.
Looks like some believers will be punished and made to wait at the back with the unbelievers (these are all servants not unbelieving outsiders). Either that or you believe it is possible to lose your salvation. Much is going to be demanded of you - I hope you’re not one of those people who find that all the speaking in tongues and stuff has been in vain when you hear the words ‘depart from me…’ and it would be all the more galling when all those folk who haven’t realised that they’ve been doing God’s will all along get in to the party.
Actually Aaron37, scripture says that Jesus bore the penalty for the sins of us all, all humanity. I am glad that you have faith in the salvation of Christ for yourself, I hope you’ll some day come to have faith in the salvation of Christ for all humanity.
As to remedial punishment, scripture affirms that we shall all face the judgment of God. And Jesus, speaking of Gehenna, says that we shall all be purified as by fire, Mk.9.49. Salvation is completely by grace and none of us get what we deserve - annihilation; but we shall all face the fire of truth concerning our lives, and that truth shall burn the evil from us. Just like when Isaiah saw the Lord, and the Lord to a coal (brimstone?) from the altar and purified him. Such purification is never pleasant; in fact, it’s often terrible - but necessary. In order to recieve God’s forgiveness, we much recognize our need for such and repent. And some day, when we face the Lord in judgment and our lives, everything we did and didn’t do is judged, well, scripture does not say in vain that the Lord will dry every tear for there will be plenty of weeping and gnashing of teeth going on.
Like I said, I’m glad that you trust in the sacrifice of Christ for your salvation; I do hope some day that you’ll have faith in Christ for the salvation of others also. For just like Jesus died for you and me, He died for the sins of all humanity. Or are you a Calvinist believing the Jesus only died for those He chooses to save?
Actually, Sherman, no where in the bible does it record anyone going to Gehenna and ultimately rising to paradise. Your confusing Ghenna with the way Hades was set up before the cross. Do you understand why Jesus went down to the spirits in prison 1 Peter 3:19-20? During the Pre-cross era everyone who died went to Hades as described in Luke 16:19-31.
Hades had 2 compartments one side was for the righteous ( Abraham’s bosom, Paradise) and the other side was for the unrighteous ( Hell) divided by the impassable great gulf fixed. It was set up this way because the OT saints had yet to be born again with life and nature of God and could not go straight to heaven when they died due to their sinful nature and because Jesus had yet to go to the cross to make this born again experience possible. So, after Jesus was crucified and resurrected…he went down to the prison (Hades) where the OT saints and the OT wicked were kept to preach the gospel to the OT saints so they could receive the born again spirit and after they received Jesus as Messiah…Jesus went over to those of the OT wicked who repented from the heart before perishing in the flood ( not all did) and preached to them to receive him as Messiah and receive the born again spirit to get them in heaven.
After Jesus accomplished this he led the multitude of captives and ascended upon high ushering the OT saints into heaven with him. (Eph 4:8-9). Hades is no longer set up the way it was described in Luke 16:19-31 before the cross. Now, all who die a believer go straight into heaven and those who die an unbeliever go straight into hell or hades to await the final judgment in Rev 20:11-15…in which they will be thrown into the lake of fire for eternity. I hope you enjoyed reading this as I did writing it.
No believer will go through any punishment, Sherman, for my Lord and Savior has already bore that for me. Jesus paid the price so I wouldn’t have to. Thanks. Sherman your theology is disturbing and not biblical…
What punishment did Jesus did not bare that I will have to?
So, what it really comes down to is you don’t really understand what actually happened to you when you got born again with the life and nature of God… And you don’t understand your spirit man and what actually happens when you die.
In a nutshell, when you die your spirit man exits your body and your actual spirit looks just like you in the natural without the blemishes and goes to heaven or hell. (Luke 16:19-31) The believers spirit man is perfect because it was created out of God’s own righteousness and true holiness. (Eph 4:24) There is nothing to be purified by fire. I have already received God’s forgiveness when I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior, Sherman.
Jesus paid it all so I wouldn’t have to, my friend.
Aside from noting that many (though not all) Christians (as well as most non-Christians) would be disturbed (to say the least) at the idea that God punishes the most innocent of people: even you yourself agree, when it seems convenient for you to do so, that believers will be punished despite Jesus having (supposedly) borne the punishment for at least all believers (if not for in fact everyone), insofar as they continue impenitently sinning. The scriptures are quite clear about this, as you yourself are well aware. The parables leading into the judgment of the sheep and the goats are themselves clearly directed as warnings against lazy and/or uncharitable direct servants of Christ, and there’s a pretty good argument that the (baby!) goats being sent off for some brisk eonian cleaning (or eternal punishment, whichever way you prefer to have it) are also by extension of context lazy and/or uncharitable direct servants of Christ–ones who aren’t surprised at being judged by Him, but are being surprised at the verdict (while the sheep are surprised that they were serving Christ at all).
So the pertinent question is whether you have any sins you’re insisting on holding to, especially laziness or uncharity on your part. Such as insisting on a lack of mercy to the least of Christ’s brothers in prison–which is one of the things that got the baby goats (the least of His brethren, too, in several ways) in trouble with Him.
1.) God intends and acts to save all sinners from sin, but eventually and hopelessly has no mercy on some sinners anyway.
2.) God persistently seeks to save some sinners from sin, but chooses from the outset to have not even some initial mercy on some sinners.
3.) God intends and acts to save all sinners from sin, and persists on doing so for all of them–even the ones who insist on God being finally and hopelessly merciless to at least some sinners.
Which of those is hopelessly unmerciful (sooner or later), and which is always mercifully hopeful? Which of those maximizes the evangelical call, and which of those limit it in one or another way? Which of those fulfills the criteria of God’s own love as emphasized by St. Paul in 1 Cor 13, and which involves hope and true love not remaining?
So, according to your belief, there was more hope for the dead who died without Christ if they died before the Cross, but not after the cross? So the OT actually had more Grace than the NT? Before the cross, all of humanity is saved, but after the cross, most people are consigned to burning in Hell forever. So, according to your belief then, it would have actually been better to live before Jesus died on the cross, because if you were righteous you’d go to Paradise and then to Heaven. But if you were unrighteous, you’d suffer in Hades for a season but ultimately be saved by Jesus. On the other hand, according to your belief, after the sacrifice of Christ, the few who trust in Christ die and go to Heaven, but all others who die not having faith in Christ go straight to Hell. So according to your belief, the unsaved of the OT end up in heaven, but the unsaved of the NT end up in Hell. And how then is the NT better than the OT? Your beliefs just do not line up with scripture.
First note that Hades is a Greek word/concept, not a Hebrew word/concept. The word/concept Hades comes from Greek and Roman Mythology. It was divided into 3 realms - not 2! The Elysium fields were heavenly and for heros. The Asphodel meadows were kinda ghostly, neither real good or real bad. And of course, Tartarus where Zeus consigned the Titans and any mortals who especially ticked him off. The Hebrews used the word Sheol, which simply meant grave or realm of the dead.
And of course, the Jews during the time of Christ used Ga Hinnom (the valey of Hinnom, Jerusalem’s trash dump, transliterated as Gehenna) to speak of a place of Remedial Punishment. As I’ve shared before, Rabbis Shammai and Hillel, the President and Head of the Sanhedrin during and immediately preceeding the time of Christ taught that Gehenna was a place of Remedial Punishment and most people who were consigned there would ultimately rise to Ga Eden after an appropriate and needed period of purification. Matthew records Jesus warning of Gehenna repeatedly, a place of remedial punishment. There was no need for Jesus to speak of people rising from Gehenna to Ga Eden, because such was part of the common understanding of Gehenna. In fact, what we should look for is anything that Jesus said that would differ from the common understanding of Gehenna.
The common Jewish beliefs concerning Ga Hinnom was that most basically good people (Hillel) or the ultra righteous (Shammai) went straight to Ga Eden when they died. Jesus, in Mt.9.49 apparently contradicts this when He warns of the fire of Ga Hinnom, he notes that all need to be salted by fire, thus indicating than none of us are good enough to go straight to heaven, but that all need purification.
The Rabbis also argued over what they believed might happen to those who were especially evil like Herod or Ceasar. Some taught that Gehenna ultimately consumed them 12 months after they died because there was nothing redeemable left in them (annihilation). Others believed that such evil people would continue to suffer in Gehenna indefinitely long, until the demands of justice were met (indefinitely long suffering).
It is thus significant to note what Jesus says in Luke 12:4-7, “4 And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into Gehenna; yes, I say to you, fear Him! 6 Are not five sparrows sold for two copper coins? And not one of them is forgotten before God. 7 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows."
So yes we should fear God who has the power to cast us into Gehenna, but we should also be comforted in that God loves us all, that none of us are so evil as to no longer have any value to God! God loves us so much that the very hairs of our head are numbered - an example of extreme passionate love. God loves all humanity, not just the righteous, but everyone!
Concerning Revelation’s lake of fire and brimstone and those that are “tormented” there note that:
The word “torment” basanizo speaks of purification, as gold is purified by fire - remedial punishment.
The lake of fire and brimstone was first noted to be in the presence of the Lamb (the revelation of the Atonement) and the angels (the revelation of the supernatural benevolance and protection of God) – Rev.14.10. What was it that led you to put your faith in Christ? Wasn’t it the revelation of the love of God as revealed in the Atonement and provision of God for you! This too speaks of Remedial Punishment.
The word Brimstone (theon, divine fire) meant fire from God. And brimstone (sulfur) was burned as incense by the Greeks in Asia Minor - incense for spiritual purification and even physical healing.
Thus when one interprets based on the actual meaning of the words in the Greek text, its literary context, and the Greco-Roman cultural context, even Revelation’s lake of fire and brimstone speaks of Remedial Punishment, punishment meant to bring about spiritual purification and healing - Remedial Punishement - punishment meant to bring about a positive change in the one being punished. Revelation’s lake of fire and brimstone was a metaphor that meant the same thing as the Jewish metaphor Ga Hinnom! Both spoke of Remedial Punishment, NOT endless mindless purposeless torture - hell.
Of course, you are welcome to disregard this verifiable information and stick to your traditional beliefs if you wish, but I do hope that you come to trust in Jesus not only for your salvation, but also for the salvation of others. Jesus came to seek and to save the lost; and I believe that He did not fail but fully accomplished through the cross the salvation of all humanity!
You know, even humans have enough compassion to put a dog deranged by rabies out of his misery. How much more compassion does God have towards us! If Jesus could not save us, heal us from the rabies of our soul, then the most compassionate thing to do would be to put us out of our misery. But praise be to Jesus who conquers all, who is the savior of all humanity, especially (not only) we who believe. 1 Tim.4.10. Jesus does not fail to save anyone, but draws all of humanity to himself through the cross!
Frankly, the traditional doctrine of hell is rooted in pagan Greco-Roman Mythology, not in scripture. If Jesus and the Apostles had intended to convey the concept of mindless endless purposeless torture only meant to vent the anger of God, then Tartarus was the word to use. If Jesus had meant such a place of endless torture, then instead of warning of Gehenna, He would have warned of Tartarus, or at least the Apostles would have warned of Tartarus. But they did not!
Aaron37, I’m glad you enjoyed writing out what you believe, but I do encourage you to study what scripture actually says and not just rely upon your traditions, and the traditional mistranslation of scripture. You know, St. Jerome actually mistranslated Sheol, Gehenna, and Hades 109 times in his Latin Vulgate which sadly became the foundational translation for the RCC. He mistranslated these words as Infernum, which carried the concept of Tartarus - an apparent purposeful mistranslation of scripture. In other words, Hell was mistranslated into scripture; it is not in reality a scriptural concept.
But we’ve been through this before. Thanks though for giving me a reason to share this information again.
Hi Jason, thanks for pointing this last warning from Aaron37; I had not read it.
Aaron37, considering your stated desire to no longer waiste your time discussing scripture with we whom you’ve judged to be heretics, I encourage you to go on your way and not be hypocritical by continuing to waiste your time.
I appreciate your opinion. I do not disagree that Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi, and I know what Gehenna is (the garbage dump), and it is spoken of in Jeremiah, 2 Chronicles and 2 Kings. It is the place where the Hebrews sacrificed their children to foreign god’s and in that place a judgment was made and by a King the place was desecrated as a reminder of the coming judgment that was coming.
That judgment? That their house will be left desolate. For as long as the fires burned, the judgment had not yet been fulfilled. In 70 AD, the fires stopped and just as Jeremiah, King Josiah, Isaiah, and Jesus said was going to happen to Israel because of their disobedience. In 70 AD, the Temple was destroyed, the offices of priest was made obsolete and salvation was given to a people who were not His people but now called Sons of God.
You may want to back up on thinking that Gehenna was a place of refinement. Gehenna is a judgment, nothing more. It is not a place of purification, it was defiled and kept burning until that judgment had been fulfilled.
That is why Jesus said in Matthew 23:15,
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of Gehenna as you are.
If Gehenna was a ‘place of purification’, Jesus would not have spoken of it in such a context. There are many who have done a lot of research on this subject as well and I know that many Rabbi’s believe Gehenna not as a place of purification but an judgment that saw Israel and a Nation destroyed but with a hope of reconciliation.
Your just another flavor of UR that contradicts the word of God. How many different flavors of UR are there now? No, I did not say all The OT wicked went to heaven. I said: So, after Jesus was crucified and resurrected…he went down to the prison (Hades) where the OT saints and the OT wicked were kept to preach the gospel to the OT saints so they could receive the born again spirit and after they received Jesus as Messiah…Jesus went over to those of the OT wicked who repented from the heart before perishing in the flood ( not all did) and preached to them to receive him as Messiah and receive the born again spirit to get them in heaven.
Notice that I said NOT ALL THE WICKED REPENTED BEFORE PERISHING IN THE FLOOD! Wake up Sherman…Misrepresenting my response speaks volumes to your understanding of scripture, my friend
Hi Craig, please do note specifically which prophecy that you believe speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem and directly relates it to Gehenna.
Even so, the passages in the Gospels where Jesus warns of Gehenna, warn of personal individual punishment based on works and attitudes, not corporate punishment as in the destruction of Jerusalem.
Yes, it was understood to be a place of defilement, and it does speak metaphorically of punishing judgment, but such judgment/punishment is remedial. Rabbis wrote of it as one encountering the fire of truth that purges one from evil. One spoke of it as God showing you two pictures, what was and what could have been if you’d have lived righteously. When we face the truth of judgment, I have no doubt that there will be plenty of weeping (repentance) and gnashing of teeth (remorse), but such is necessary for us to recieve the forgiveness of God and healing of our souls.
I don’t understand your point that Jesus would not have spoken of Gehenna as a place of both purification and defilement. It was a defiled place. To be cast there was to be judged as defiled and unacceptable. But accepting judgment of one’s self is the first step to repentance and healing. To me they are two sides of the same coin.
Concerning what others have concluded based on their research, I’m sorry but I can’t go there; rather, I seek to base my beliefs on my research as much as I can. Of course, if someone shows me information that I was not aware of I’ll gladly reconsider my understanding of things based on such verifiable information.
Jesus warned of how bad Gehenna will be, warning that it would be better to loose a limb than to have the use of that limb and go to Gehenna, better to go blind than to have eye sight and sin against God. Understanding our depravity, how we have hurt others, and how our sins have caused God so much pain will be terrible. Facing the demons of our own making is the worst punishment we could face, but it is what is often needed for us to come to ourselves. I believe Gehenna metaphorically speaks of remedial punishment; how that actually plays out I do not presume to know. But I do know that I want to live in a way so as to please and honor God and not need such terrible judgment.
Also, I believe such judgment is not just for the future, but is especially for us today. Today we can face the fire of truth and repent. In fact, it’s God’s desire that all should come to repentance. Today is the day of salvation, and today is the day we need to embrace the judgment of God. Judgment and salvation walk hand in hand, both accomplishing in us the will of God.
Your just another flavor of UR that contradicts the word of God. How many different flavors of UR are there now? No, I did not say all The OT wicked went to heaven. I said: So, after Jesus was crucified and resurrected…he went down to the prison (Hades) where the OT saints and the OT wicked were kept to preach the gospel to the OT saints so they could receive the born again spirit and after they received Jesus as Messiah…Jesus went over to those of the OT wicked who repented from the heart before perishing in the flood ( not all did) and preached to them to receive him as Messiah and receive the born again spirit to get them in heaven.
Notice that I said NOT ALL THE WICKED REPENTED BEFORE PERISHING IN THE FLOOD! Wake up Sherman…Misrepresenting my response speaks volumes to your understanding of scripture, my friend.
I suppose I read scripture more closely than I read your posts, and I assumed that you would not add to scripture, for Peter does not say that Jesus went and preached to the righteous in prison, but he went and preached to the unrighteous and disobedient spirits in prison. It also says that these He preached the Gospel to in prison, the unrighteous and disobedient, “so although they were destined to die like all people, they now live forever with God in the Spirit.” Notice that scripture doesn’t say some were saved but others were not; you added that. The context though draws no such distinction or inference. It doesnt’ speak of Jesus preaching to the righeous, but to only the unrighteous. And it doesn’t say that only some were brought to life with God, but infers all who heard the Good News were brought out of captivity. Why was Jesus anointed to preach the Gospel? To set the captives free! I encourage you to have a little, well, a lot more faith in the Gospel. Oh, but then you do not believe the Good News that Jesus actually is the savior of all humanity, the Good News that God reconciles all of creation through Jesus. It seems you still believe, regardless of what scripture actually says, the traditional errant bad news that Jesus fails to save most of humanity and that God damns them to Hell.
I’ll try to read your posts a little more closely and not assume that you’re referencing scripture correctly.
All 3 misrepresent the redemption plan of God. Lets examine option #3, shall we?
I will believe option #3 if you will show us in the bible where it records this: Universalists are quick to point out that hell is never mentioned in the Old Testament. However, if Universalism is true, it is also striking that the New Testament, and especially the book of Revelation, does not mention souls repenting and being redeemed from the lake of fire.The mere mention of one person being plucked from their torment, having their name added to the Lamb’s book of life, and entering the city of God would shed so much light on this subject.
Why doesn’t God explicitly state that such a thing will necessarily happen?
Does not the absence of such a statement undermine the Universalist view?
Also, can you explain to us how the sin Jesus said “HAS NEVER FORGIVENESS” in Mark 3:28-29 is somehow mysteriously reversed and forgiven according to UR theology?
Sherman, your inability to grasp the understanding of how Hades was set up before the cross established in Luke 16:19-31…hinders you, my friend. Your inability to understand Eph 4:8-9…hinders you, my friend. Do you really think Jesus led the multitude of captives after he descended in the lower parts of the earth were only the disobedient in Noah’s day? Absolutely not! They were a combination of the OT saints in Abraham’s bosom or paradise and the disobedient who actually repented before they perished in the flood. ( Not all the wicked repented before they perished in the flood, Sherman)
It would be better to present evidence that supports your beliefs than to speak of my “inability”.
Of course, you’re welcome to believe what you want, but the 1 Pet.3:18-4:6 says that Jesus preached to the spirits in captivity, to those who died during the time of Noah, to those who were reputed to be the most wicked of humanity of all time. He preached to them the Gospel which resulted in them coming into life in God.
There was no need to preach the gospel to the OT Saints for they were already in Paradise - not in captivity. They were already in right relationship with God and not in “captivity”, but in Paradise (Ga Eden).
Also notice that the passage does not say or imply that any of these people repented before they died. If anything, these people died in their sins and were thus their spirits were in captivity.
Why was this particular group noted as hearing the Gospel and coming to life in God? I believe it is because of their reputation of being the most wicked generation of people of all time; every thought they had was evil! If, as this scripture highlights, Jesus saved this people, the most wicked people of all time, then surely He saves everyone else, all other generations that are not nearly as evil! This passage is a celebration of the power of the Gospel to raise to life those who are spiritually and even physically dead in their sins, even these who died during the time of Noah - the most evil of all generations!
But of course you’re welcome to read into this passage anything you want, but I believe it’s best to interpret it based on what it actually says, not what you might want to read into it. It does not say that Jesus preached to the spirits in Paradise, but the spirits in prison, particularly those who died in their sins in the evil generation that rejected God’s warning and salvation during the time of Noah!
There was no need to mention such because it was understood. Just like if someone warned a Jew of Gehenna during the time of Christ, he’d assume that such punishment was remedial and that one would be rise from Gehenna to Ga Eden (Paradise) within 11 months. Just like a RCC would assume that a warning of Purgatory does not need to mention that one eventually comes out of Purgatory and enters heaven. In like manner, the Greeks and Romans of Asia minor would have understood that the lake of fire was for purification and healing. The Lake of Fire was produced by the presence of the Lamb and the presence of the Angels, Rev.14.10. It is the revelation of the Atonement (the Lamb) and the revelation of God’s supernatural benevolent acts of provision and protection (the angels) that brings us to repentance. This is what would have been understood by the metaphor of the lake of fire - not endless torture.
Of course not; it wasn’t needed because it would have been understood that it spoke of Remedial Punishment, not unending torture.
Yes, note that both “echo” (has, have) and “eimi” (is, shall) are in the Present Tense. They are not statments of the future, but of the present condition. Thus it would best be interpreted: “but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit does not have forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation.” Jesus is speaking of the current condition of a person who is so deceived as to attribute miracles from God as being from Satan. As long as a person is so decieved, they will live in a state of judgment and condemnation.
Sadly though, this passage is often mistranslated to speak of future potential, as if even though a person repents, they could never be forgiven. But that’s not what it actually says.
Again, it would really help if you studied what the passage actually says instead of relying upon tradtion, even traditional mistranslations.
Again, you are showing your inability or reluctance to understand what has been established in Luke 16:19-31.The spirits in prison was indicating the captivity of the OT saints in paradise and the OT wicked in hell. They were both held captive in 2 separate compartments of hades until Jesus went to the cross. The richman was close enough to have a conversation with Abraham in paradise. Need I remind you that the richman and Abraham were not in the same place. Abraham was in paradise… separated by the great gulf fixed…while the richman was in hell.
Wrong answer. You are admitting that you are believing in an act that is not recorded in the bible. How could it be understood if there is not one verse of evidence that mentions it? The mere mention of one person being plucked from their torment, having their name added to the Lamb’s book of life, and entering the city of God would shed so much light on this subject. Where is it?
Ok, show me evidence that merely mentions of one person being plucked from their torment in the lake of fire and having their name added to the Lamb’s book of life.
Nope, Jesus said has “NEVER FORGIVENESS” that means more than just the present, Sherman. Unbelief in this world or the world to come is a sin that is irremediable, Sherman, according to Jesus.
You would have done better to try to “examine” how the other two “misrepresent the redemption plan of God”. It isn’t like I thought you would accept #3. I’m glad you think the other two aren’t the redemption plan of God, though, and so misrepresent it when claimed to be such. You can at least agree with us universalists on that, then.
And yes, I realize FU posted up that comment the other day. You have already refused to even recognize that I answered that topic with a massive number of scriptural references, even aside from whether I did so competently. So there is less than no point addressing any answer to him to you as well.
I’ll probably get around to commenting to him (not to you) in that thread sooner or later. Or he can read around and find out for himself what I’ve already extensively written on that topic.
I’ve been working on commenting on Matt Slick’s article for the past few days (instead of, for example, answering FU on something I’ve already done a lot of work on recently), and have just put it up here for anyone actually interested in reading and dialoguing with it.
I’m glad you think the other two aren’t the redemption plan of God, though, and so misrepresent it when claimed to be such. You can at least agree with us universalists on that, then.